In normal email chonology, first email at the end, last email response appears first.
Scroll to the end first and work to the top if you want the full
dramatic effect and to see the interaction as it occured... The first
(bottom) email is in response to my $22 dollar international phone call
describing my "oil pressure" issues and what I had already looked
at/tried.
From: "Whisper"
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:13 AM
To: support@fischerpanda.com
Cc: "Colin Pawson - Enertec Services NZ"; "Bob Grubert - Fischer Panda"
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016
James,
Thanks for escalating this. This must be the same management that has
ignored me for the last seven years! It was worth one final try though!
If we had stayed in California back in 2002 and sued Fischer Panda for
selling us a lemon instead of going cruising, we might be happier campers
today. Our bad.
The generator will be removed from the boat and sold for parts (or to a
really handy Kiwi who wants a winter project). We will start fresh with
another generator solution and hope for better luck with our next product.
Thanks for all your help on this. You may close this case.
Duncan Owen
s/v Whisper
Whangarei, New Zealand
-----Original Message-----
From: James Gagnon [mailto:support@fischerpanda.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:26 AM
To: "Whisper"
Cc: "Colin Pawson - Enertec Services NZ"; Robert M Grubert
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016
Duncan;
I have discussed the contents of your attached e-mail with
Management. We regret to advise that we are not able to accommodate you
on either one of your requests. We do recommend that you discuss the
viability of your repair options with Colin Pawson. We remain committed
to provide you with technical support during the repair process of your
7 year old generator, if you at any stage decide that this is a viable
option.
Sincerely;
James C. Gagnon
Service Manager
Fischer Panda Generators U.S.A.
support@fischerpanda.com
service@fischerpanda.com
800-508-6494
954-462-2800
-----Original Message-----
From: "Whisper" [mailto:"Whisper"]
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:00 PM
To: James Gagnon
Cc: "Colin Pawson - Enertec Services NZ"; Robert M Grubert
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016
James,
Although Colin is on holiday now, I have talked to Colin and Enertec's
service department over the last month. They helped me with the the oil
pressure problem diagnosis, recommended I clean the oil screen, and sent
me the replacement sensor/switch.
I'm sure Colin will get back to me when he returns, but we discussed
carrying out major work on our Panda last year in regard to fixing our
sooting problem. At the time, Colin thought (correctly) it would be
better to get the machine to a well-lighted, easy-to-work-on work bench
in the shop and perform a full diagnostic and repair.
We did not want to go down that path due to the perceived additional and
unknown expense, so instead, we spent only $2500 NZ having them do the
head re-build work while the AGT remained on the boat. It was not easy
to do because of the location of the unit behind the main engine in the
engine room.
Colin also warned us that without a full engine/genset diagnostic in the
shop -- and a likely engine replacement (the difference in price between
rebuilding an engine and buying a new one is small), we were risking
running into further problems. He suspected we would not get 1500 hours
out of the engine with as hard a life as it has had. At 1200 hours, we
thought this an acceptable risk. We had Enertec do the head-rebuild
work on the boat anyway, hoping it would get us through the 12 month
cruising season.
So here we are. One month into our cruising and looking at major labor
costs associated with replacing a spun bearing (in or out of the boat),
and the high-probability that when we get in there -- we will see more
problems.
Please also note -- the sooty burning problem was NOT corrected by the
head re-build. The engine still burns very sooty at all loads and
speeds.
My suspicion is that you WILL find other problems and the expense of a
rebuild will approach the cost of a new engine. As I have said, we are
no longer spending any money on this generator. We have wasted over
$17,000 US at this point, and are more angry and frustrated than these
emails can possibly communicate.
As I see it, there are only two scenarios where Fischer Panda can make
our last 5 years of generator-hell right:
1.) Fischer Panda swaps our AGT genset with a completely-new-and-non-lemon
AGT in the next 2 weeks at no cost to us, or:
2.) Fischer Panda deposits $10,000 US into our account to reimburse us
for all our trouble and expense -- and we give this AGT back to Enertec for
refurbishment and resale. We use the money to replace the AGT with
another charging solution so we can leave the dock this cruising season.
We are done discussing any further work on this Fischer Panda. Consider
this "oil pressure" support case closed and forward us on to whoever will
make one of the two above options happen. Please give us one reason to
say something nice about Fischer Panda.
Thanks,
Duncan Owen
s/y Whisper
Whangarei Town Basin Marina, New Zealand
0064 21 999 999 or
021 999 999 in NZ
"Whisper"
-----Original Message-----
From: James Gagnon [mailto:support@fischerpanda.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 3:05 AM
To: "Whisper"
Cc: "Colin Pawson - Enertec Services NZ"; Robert M Grubert
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016
Duncan;
Although I can appreciate your frustration I do think that if
you have spun the bearing this can be repaired without completely
disassembling the engine. If you can get Colin involved I think it could
be possible to do this in the boat. I would be glad to go over this with
him and help him to perform this for you. Please keep in mind there is
always an outside chance that there could be something deeper that is
wrong and this could be found once you open up the engine. I think at
this point the only option is to open the engine but again I think you
need to discuss this with Colin and see what he thinks.
Sincerely;
James C. Gagnon
Service Manager
Fischer Panda Generators U.S.A.
support@fischerpanda.com
service@fischerpanda.com
800-508-6494
954-462-2800
-----Original Message-----
From: "Whisper" [mailto:"Whisper"]
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 11:56 PM
To: James Gagnon
Cc: "Colin Pawson - Enertec Services NZ"; Robert M Grubert
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016
James,
I had a diesel mechanic come by with all the gauges and fittings. The
numbers below are based on real measured oil pressures and fuel
pressures.
Today, I purchased a 12V 2-liter/minute fuel pump that has the correct
size fittings and develops 3-4 PSI when operating. The Panda started and
put out 150 amps at 14.7 volts, but that may have been all it needed (the
batteries were not very discharged). It ran fine and except for that new
rattle-clank, and sounded like it was full output, until of course, it
failed on low oil pressure five minutes in.
It sounds like the Hardi fuel pump may be failing (again) if it is not
putting out its rated PSI. I will discharge the batteries further to see
if we can get 14.7 volts AND 250 amps again tomorrow with the new pump,
that will point to a failed Hardi pump as the culprit for the low output.
So today, with a full 14.7V output and 150 amps going into the batteries,
the engine ran for about 5 minutes before shutting down on the oil
pressure drop. So I believe your "spun bearing" is the problem.
As far as us overloading the generator as the possible root cause, we
found out in 2005 (from Ashly Rushton, and after over 1000 hours of
use), we should not have expected the unit to deliver its rated 285/12V
250/14.7V amps output at full power for more than "intermittent loads".
125 amps is the actual "sustained" output for such a small horsepower
engine. Thanks, but this information was 1000 hours too late. I'll also
mention that no Panda sales person, support person, or installer ever
suggested that the unit could not produce 200 amps continuously.
We asked the Panda to deliver between 125 and 200 amps for up to 2 hours
per day and even more on passages. Now it appears we have an engine with
only 1270 hours on it that is in need of a full rebuild or complete
replacement. Panda blames us for "overloading" the generator. We blame
Panda for creatively exaggerating the AGT's capability from day one and
not realistically managing our expectations.
We are now at another expensive impasse, but this time we will not throw
any more good money after bad. It is time to pull the plug and take the
AGT away. Unfortunately, our now $17,000+ "investment" in this Fischer
Panda -- that gave us only about 27 months worth of away-from-the-dock
service -- comes to a close, and will be pulling it out of the boat.
Sorry to rant on you. You are doing a fine job as a support person, but
we are done with this process.
Sincerely,
Duncan Owen
s/v Whisper
-----Original Message-----
From: James Gagnon [mailto:support@fischerpanda.com]
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 11:13 AM
To: "Whisper"
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016
Duncan;
I have looked through your file and I have found that the fuel
pump on your unit is a Hardi pump and this is rated at 3 to 4 psi, so it
appears that your measured fuel pressure is low. This could cause slower
engine speed and reduce output. When your oil pressure was falling off
did you measure your output voltage to see if it was falling off as
well? If your engine speed (voltage) is falling off as engine oil
pressure is dropping this would indicate a fuel problem. If your engine
speed (voltage) is consistent and not falling off then the problem could
be internal. I have looked closely at your pictures and I can see no
issue with the oil pump it appears to be ok. Please verify engine speed
(voltage) prior to reaching low oil pressure this is the most important.
I have seen if you have a spun bearing that it could cause the oil
pressure to decrease but it is an unlikely scenario unless you had
another cause for this failure. Continuous overload or over speeding
could cause this. You have verified that the oil pressure is indeed
falling off with a manual gauge? If you can positively rule out the fuel
first then it could be possible that your rod knock could have a spun
bearing. Please let me know what you find.
Sincerely;
James C. Gagnon
Service Manager
Fischer Panda Generators U.S.A.
support@fischerpanda.com
service@fischerpanda.com
800-508-6494
954-462-2800
-----Original Message-----
From: "Whisper" [mailto:"Whisper"]
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 9:33 AM
To: James Gagnon
Cc: "Colin Pawson - Enertec Services NZ"; Robert M Grubert
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016
James,
Well, here is what we have learned about our AGT oil pressure problem
with
the help of a local diesel mechanic:
Minutes:Seconds
Run time PSI
-------- ---
00:15 18
02:00 15
03:30 10
05:00 07
06:00 05
We shorted the sensor circuit to get the pressure gauge on and the unit
running, so manually shut it down after 6 minutes.
The fuel pressures are:
o 2 PSI at sound shield port: fuel pump relay only, engine not running,
through 2 micron filter.
o Just < 1 PSI with engine running at full output, through 2 micron
filter
o Just > 1 PSI with engine running at full output, bypassing 2 micron
filter
Are these normal and correct?
The exhaust elbow was removed and the exhaust port was sooty, but with
less than 1mm of build-up. It only has about 80 hours on it since the
entire head was rebuilt by Enertec and the elbow was replaced, so I would
expect the top-end is mostly fine. There is no loss of oil when it is
(was) running.
You have the photo of the trochoid pump and cover plate -- you will need
to tell me if those look okay.
It appears that as the oil warms up, it passes back to the oil-pan/sump
too quickly and pressure is lost. All people we have talked to indicate
a worn seal or bearing seating is allowing the oil to pass as it thins.
We thought thicker oil might help, so we tried 50W, but this too has the
oil pressure failure after about 8-10 minutes.
As for the low output, I think it is either related to the oil pressure
problem, or there is another problem that I have caused while working on
this problem. I think either way, we are done with diagnosing and
spending any more time or money on this unit.
Our gamble that the AGT would make it for this next cruising year has
failed and we are actively seeking a new solution.
Thanks,
Duncan Owen
s/y Whisper
Whangarei, New Zealand
0064 21 999 999
-----Original Message-----
From: James Gagnon [mailto:support@fischerpanda.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 4:22 AM
To: "Whisper"
Cc: Colin Pawson
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016
Duncan;
I do not think you have high oil pressure; this is usually
caused by overfilling the oil level substantially. I think we need to
look closer into the fuel issue and see if the engine is slowing down or
if you have verified reduced output. I am hoping that Enertec can offer
some assistance as well as I am so far away and I may be missing
something. Please try to verify some of the items we went over and let
me know what you find.
Sincerely;
James C. Gagnon
Service Manager
Fischer Panda Generators U.S.A.
support@fischerpanda.com
service@fischerpanda.com
800-508-6494
954-462-2800
-----Original Message-----
From: Duncan Owen [mailto:"Whisper"]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 5:46 PM
To: James Gagnon
Cc: "Colin Pawson - Enertec Services NZ"
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016
James,
Colin is on leave for a bit, so we may not hear back from him right
away.
I get the oil pressure gauge rigged up and see exactly what we are
looking at. It occurred to me the pressure might be going too high, then
spilling through the relief valve causing it to go too low for a time and shut
down?
I also will look into the fuel issue as related to the low output. I
looked in my previous notes on low output and this has happened twice in the
past -- the first time it was a failing fuel pump (which we replaced in
2004 and this resolved it) and the second was a mis-alignment on the fuel
solenoid (which a quick alignment twist corrected in 2005). I will try
this first. I had just changed the 2-micron R12S Racor fuel filter 60 hours
ago, but will replace it again to see if anything changes. I checked the fuel
pick-up in the fuel-tank sump and it is clean fuel, and the intake pipe
is not screened (so it can't clog).
I will continue diagnostics for a few more days, but the frustration is
building.
In parallel, we are actively seeking other power-generation solutions.
We are very anxious to get away from the dock again for this cruising
season and don't want to spend weeks working on this problem (we have
already spent two weeks).
Thanks,
Duncan
0064 21 999 999
Whangarei, New Zealand
Town Basin Marina
-----Original Message-----
From: James Gagnon [mailto:support@fischerpanda.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 10:58 AM
To: "Whisper"
Cc: cpawson@enertecservices.co.nz
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016
Duncan;
After reading your email thoroughly it does not sound to me that
you have an actual oil pressure problem however the indication of a
knocking noise is disturbing. I believe that first you have a fuel
problem, maybe a dirty filter or a slowing pump or quite possibly
something in the fuel tank itself such as a blocked pick up screen or
crack in the pick up tube itself. If the generator is trying to handle
load and it starts to slow down and eventually stop with only an oil
pressure light it leads me to thinking that fuel could be your problem.
I think you need to verify the knock you are hearing is actually an
engine knock and not a fuel knock, maybe Colin could help you with this.
If your engine speed is declining your voltage will decline and the
engine may start to knock if it is starved for fuel prior to shutting
itself down. What is your no load DC voltage? This is an important
number which will help to verify engine speed. If you check the engine
with a manual oil pressure gauge and the readings look good and then if
the oil pressure starts to fall off you must try to notice if the engine
itself is slowing down, if it is then fuel is definitely the cause, if
it does not then something is wrong internally in the engine.
Sincerely;
James C. Gagnon
Service Manager
Fischer Panda Generators U.S.A.
support@fischerpanda.com
service@fischerpanda.com
800-508-6494
954-462-2800
-----Original Message-----
From: "Whisper" [mailto:"Whisper"]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:49 AM
To: James Gagnon
Subject: Re: PMA04-012016
Okay James, UPDATE:
I found the oil pressure relief valve under the fuel solenoid. I had to
remove the air cleaner to reach it, then I pulled it out, inspected the
spring, ball, hole, and plug -- but nothing interesting found. Spring
and ball bearing look fine. The copper washer seat is good (not leaking).
I cleaned it up, cleaned the port out too, replaced everything, re-filled
with oil and started the genset. It ran for about 8-10 minutes until the
oil pressure started dropping and then went steady red and shut down.
Exact same symptom as before.
When I had the relief valve out, I also pulled the cover off the oil
pump and took a couple of photos (attached). I'm not sure if anything looks
wrong. I all looked OK to me, but please look.
I'm still interested in any drawings or photos you may have, but now
they seem less important.
During the 10 minutes it was running, I noticed the generator was never
able to put out more than 150 amps -- into our now very discharged
batteries. We have had this low-output symptom before, but we were never
able to track it down, it "fixed itself" on a fuel-up. This may have
nothing to do with the oil pressure problem, but I wanted to mention it
as a symptom that might be related. Could a restriction somewhere in the
fuel system have any influence on oil pressure?
So what's next? Ship me a new AGT 4000 air freight by next Tuesday and
swap this one for it? Sounds good to me! Oh, but at no cost to me -- did
I mention that?
Thanks, I look forward to next-step ideas.
Duncan
0064 21 999 999
> James,
>
> Just to verify...
>
> Does "on the bottom" literally mean under the engine? Will I need to lift
> the engine to get to the relief valve? If I wanted to pull, clean,
> inspect, and replace the oil pump, is that possible without lifting the
> engine out of the sound shield?
>
> A diagram of the actual engine -- photo or drawing -- that illustrates
> exactly where these items are would be very helpful as well.
>
> Thanks for your reply,
>
> Duncan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Gagnon [mailto:support@fischerpanda.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 10:20 AM
> To: "Whisper"
> Subject: PMA04-012016
>
> Duncan;
>
>
I have sent a picture of the pump and the relief valve. The
> relief valve is located under the injection pump on the bottom
> of the engine and the pump cover is located on the middle of
> the engine with 3 bolts holding the cover in place. I think
> that maybe something may be stuck in the relief valve as this
> is a mechanical pump and not likely to fail but their
> locations should be easy to locate and you should be able to
> verify if this is where your problem lies. Please let me know
> if you have further questions.
>
> Sincerely;
>
> James C. Gagnon
> Service Manager
> Fischer Panda Generators U.S.A.
> support@fischerpanda.com
> service@fischerpanda.com
> 800-508-6494
> 954-462-2800