NOTE: In chronology of oldest first (2002) to newer (2005) at the end.
X-MID: 1048_kg6nnnn
To: "Todd Rickard"
Cc: "Shea Weston", "Dave Thompson"
Subject: Whisper's Fischer Panda Problem
X-Type: Email; Outmail
Date: 10 Nov 2002 17:24:21 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.WRD719
X-Date: 2002/11/10 17:24:22
Hi Todd -- sorry for the business related email -- I'll follow up with a less business-
like email soon, but our Fischer Panda AGT-4 is acting up again and I'm urgently in need
of your help.
As a quick recap: Last summer, after only 35 hours of operation, a 400A fuse (stack of
four 100A bar-type fuses) on the positive side of the genset output fried. We also
determined that the 1.6A fuse in the VCS blew. You sent me the 4 100A bars to replace
that melted fuse, and I acquired the 1.6A fuse from Radio Shack (as specified by Bob
Grubert in FL) -- we put it back together and the unit worked, but the voltage
occasionally climbed to > 15 volts, so I had to sit and watch every charge cycle like a
hawk.
Eventually, working with Dave Thompson out of Redondo Beach, he got me a new VCS -- we
put it in and for the last 80+ hours of run time it has worked like a champ (the genset
now has 120.1 hours on it). Unfortunately, about halfway into yesterday's charging
routine, I heard the genset RPM's speed up and when I looked at the ammeter, nothing was
going into the batteries -- it had replaced about 145 Ah, with only 151 Ah remaining to
a full charge. Today I inspected the 400A "bar" fuse on the + output, and it was again
melted. The wires from the generator case to the wire terminals on the top of the +
terminal have turned caramel colored (they were yellowish) and are covered with a sticky
brown goo. I looked at the VCS and the VCS 1.6A fuse, but it looks fine and the fuse
has not blown. The big external fuse you had placed on the fuse bar just outside the
genset case is still intact (on the + output cable).
I know this is a severe problem and I may have been close to having a fire. Although I
have a spare set of the 400A fuse bars, I will not replace them until I know the root
cause of this problem and have a reliable, safe fix. The batteries were the only demand
variable yesterday -- I had not yet turned on the inverter (for hot H2O) or the
watermaker. The weather was hot, and the genset motor & generator was still too hot to
touch after three hours of sitting there with the cover on.
I wanted to start with you on this issue and hope that you or you with the help of Shea
Weston (619-501-2082) and/or Dave Thompson (310-318-9836) can get me back up and
reliably charging. Both Shea and Dave have inspected the install and Dave helped me
with this specific issue last year. Since you performed the install, I'm calling on you
to lead the effort to get me back up and running. I'm at anchor in Cabo San Lucas now
and will be heading to either La Paz or Puerto Vallarta next week (unless you tell me to
stay put in Cabo). It would be great to hear that I can get replacement parts (shipped
in, or here in Cabo), that this problem is either a known AGT-4 problem or easy to
diagnose and fix -- and that a qualified technician can be available to do the work.
Please let me know if you can lead this and contact me via sailmail ASAP.
Thanks so much, Robin & Duncan on Whisper.
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X-From: EMAIL
From: "Todd Rickard"
To: "Whisper"
Subject: RE: Whisper's Fischer Panda Problem
X-WL2K-Date: 2002/11/11 01:30
Date: 11 Nov 2002 01:30:00 -0000
X-WL2K-Type: Private
X-AM-RCPT: wcz99999
X-System-Context: SAILMAIL
Message-Id: <cb154ee0b4b022ee.wcz99999_167@airmail2000.com>
X-MID: wcz99999_167
X-AM-UID: f1e803b76dfd8291d9f030aafcf6b83d
X-Type: email; inmsg
X-Via: HF.WHV681
X-Date: 2002/11/11 02:57:18
X-Status: Replied
Duncan,
Hello,
Can you find out what size of wire I installed on the run from the generator
to the batteries. Where exactly is the wire turning to "goo"? It obviously
sounds like the amps flowing through the wire is too much for the cable to
handle. If so, it may be necessary to increase its size, but get me the
wire size, and the max amps that you have seen flow from the generator into
the batteries. The cabling is obviously not capable of handling 400 AMPS
for any length of time. I sized it for the 285 peak that the generator
should be putting out. What is the size of the fuse I installed on the
outside of the generator on the + cable? I will get a response to you
A.S.A.P.
Todd
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X-From: EMAIL
From: "Shea Weston"
To: "Whisper"
Subject: RE: Whisper's Fischer Panda Problem
X-WL2K-Date: 2002/11/10 18:52
Date: 10 Nov 2002 18:52:00 -0000
X-WL2K-Type: Private
X-AM-RCPT: wcz99999
X-System-Context: SAILMAIL
Message-Id: <7774b45fd485e487.wcz99999_160@airmail2000.com>
X-MID: wcz99999_160
X-AM-UID: 17a9a48c44eaf5ecf47f9f73074fc4d5
X-Type: email; inmsg
X-Via: HF.WHV681
X-Date: 2002/11/11 02:49:08
X-Status: Replied
Duncan,
Sorry to hear of the problem with the Panda. I have seen this issue
before and it could be related to a VCS problem or the genset putting a
bit too much current out. It is normal to see the output wires
discolored somewhat from the heat. The fusible links get pretty hot when
run near its current rating. This heat is transferred to the wires and
causes the woven insulation to turn darker. You should first check all
the connections near the fuses to make sure everything is tight-even a
slightly loose connection at that current level will create an enormous
amount of heat and cause the fuse to blow at a lower current level.
Also, if the unit was that hot and it was close to max output, the fuse
could have just been pushed "over-the-edge" by the heat. Reducing the
max output by 30-40A (see below) may keep the fuse within its ratings.
You did not specify, but what sort of output (amps) was the unit
producing when the fuse went? If you'd like you can adjust the current
limit control on the VCS box to limit the unit to a particular max amps
output. I believe the appropriate trim-pot is identified in the manual.
Just be careful to not adjust the voltage adjustment by accident.
If you'd like we could try to make a voice radio contact schedule to
discuss the problem further.
Regards, Shea Weston
--------------------------------------
Offshore Outfitters
Marine Electrical and Electronic Systems
San Diego, CA http://www.offshoreoutfitters.com
(619) 225-5690 . (619) 501-2082 Fax
***
X-In-Reply-To: wcz99999_167
To: "Todd Rickard"
Subject: RE: Whisper's Fischer Panda Problem
X-Type: Email; Outmail
X-MID: 1052_kg6nnnn
Date: 12 Nov 2002 18:31:24 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.WHV681
X-Date: 2002/11/12 18:31:26
Todd,
Thanks for the quick response. The +/- wires to/from the genset to the batteries is
Anchor 4/0 AWG battery cable. It is about a 12 to 14 ft run from the genset to the
batteries. The positive side is protected by a 400A fuse in a fuse block. The max amps
we have ever seen flow is 280 or less. During an "over voltage" problem is when we see
the 4-100 amp internal bars melt. Unfortunately, we have not seen the max amps just
prior to this fuse blowing.
The wires that look burned (all inside the genset housing) are the bundle of seven wires
that leave the generator windings, travel up through two 20mm cable brackets (the wires
are cable tied every 3 inches or so), and they wires split and terminate on the top of
the genset electrical "terminals" (under the plastic "warning, only open if you are a
qualified electrician" cover). There are 3 pairs of wires labeled 1, 2, & 3, and a
seventh wire that disappears at the top of the genset. The most severe burning/melting
of this bundle of 7 wires is under the two cable brackets (rubber lined stainless
loops). I removed one of these brackets and found the plastic insulation had melted,
carmalized, and run down the bundle of wires. There does not appear to be a short,
because there is a cloth insulator under the plastic, but it is clear these wires got
very hot at some point.
Assuming these wires are field replaceable, I need new ones. I'd also like to get two
additional sets of the 4-100 amp fuse "bars" as spares. I may lower the external 400A
fuse to 350A, so that fuse might blow first if this happens again. I'm also thinking of
trying to set up the "automatic" run/shutdown feature, setting the low end at about 10
volts (never letting it get here) and the high end at about 15 volts (so it would shut
off automatically). If you remember, we never activated that "auto run" control box,
assuming I'd always run manually. Does this sound like a good idea?
Although we are not 100% sure of this yet, we suspect that our SSB / SailMail RF
transmissions may be responsible for confusing the VCS and causing it to allow an over-
voltage state. We just noticed that our Balmar voltage regulator for the engine Balmar
alternator, freaks out and shuts down when we are transmitting on the SSB. We then
remembered we were transmitting when the genset RPMs climbed the other day. If the RF
confused the VCS and allowed the voltage to climb to 16-18 volts, could the 400A fuse
blow? Is this a feasible explanation? Has anyone else had this problem? Since we just
got our SailMail working, this is possibly the first time we would have encountered
this. Look forward to any ideas you have. My sister (from Renton, WA) may be coming to
visit us over Thanksgiving, so if you can get us the parts we need in the next couple of
weeks, she may be able to bring them down with her.
Thanks much, Duncan
X-In-Reply-To: wcz99999_160
To: "Shea Weston"
Subject: RE: Whisper's Fischer Panda Problem
X-Type: Email; Outmail
X-MID: 1053_kg6nnnn
Date: 12 Nov 2002 18:31:24 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.WHV681
X-Date: 2002/11/12 18:31:26
Hi Shea, Thanks for the quick response. I looked carefully at the bundle of 7 wires
that leads from the generator windings to the top of the electrical terminus and removed
the stainless/rubber cable bracket that holds the bundle in place. The wire covers
(plastic) have all melted, but the cloth insulation still looks intact. I'm asking Todd
to order me replacement wires and some spare fuses.
Although we are not 100% sure of this yet, we suspect that our SSB / SailMail RF
transmissions may be responsible for confusing the VCS and causing it to allow an over-
voltage state. We just noticed that our Balmar voltage regulator for the engine's
Balmar alternator, freaked out and shut down when we were charging and transmitting on
the SSB. We then remembered we were transmitting when the genset RPMs climbed the other
day. If the RF confused the VCS and allowed the voltage to climb to 16-18 volts, we
think this might have caused the 400A fuse to blow. Is this a feasible explanation?
Has anyone else had this problem? Since we just got SailMail working, this is possibly
the first time we would have encountered or tested this. Look forward to any ideas you
have.
Thanks much, Duncan
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X-From: EMAIL
From: "Brian S. Rickard"
To: "Whisper"
Subject: Generator issues
X-WL2K-Date: 2002/11/13 00:10
Date: 13 Nov 2002 00:10:00 -0000
X-WL2K-Type: Private
X-AM-RCPT: wcz99999
X-System-Context: SAILMAIL
Message-Id: <9593dad7337e0f1b.wcz99999_176@airmail2000.com>
X-MID: wcz99999_176
X-AM-UID: 9e89c0b3c0f79c98b09ca250ba299eba
X-Type: email; inmsg
X-Via: HF.WPTG385
X-Date: 2002/11/13 00:29:28
X-Status: Replied
Duncan,
This does sound odd. I thought the wiring issue was back at the batteries.
Let me check tomorrow and see if F.P. in FT. Lauderdale has any explanation.
I do think the SSB could be messing with the VCS controller.
It is odd that anything in the unit would be "melting" wire. I believe all
the voltage in the wires you are talking about is still at 400V DC, and less
than 10 amps. There is a DC/DC converter that gets it down to 12 volt.
Maybe the converter is acting up. I will check on the possibilities.
What type of problems were you able to resolve to get the SSB to transmit
e-mail properly? Other than ferrite beads, has anything been added/deleated
on the SSB install?
The SSB and the Fischer Panda generator have potential to mess with other
systems. I am confused on why the overheating in the Generator though. I
will let you know what I hear from Fischer Panda.
Todd
***
X-MID: 1084_kg6nnnn
To: "Todd Rickard", "Brian Rickard"
Subject: Whisper's Panda Issue
X-Type: Email; Outmail
Date: 27 Nov 2002 22:33:46 -0000
X-From: kg6nnnn
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.WD8DHF
X-Date: 2002/11/27 22:33:48
Todd, Wanted to check on the status with F.P. Have attached low res photo to help
illustrate the problem. The brown goo is between the wires at the bottom. Please let
me know what the next step is. We need to head to PV in the next week or so. My sister
in Renton IS coming to PV for Christmas (leaving the 19th), so she might be able to help
with transport of new fuses and any replacement wires. Please revert back to
wcz99999@sailmail.com for your response -- trying not to use our ham email adresses, but
sailmail won't take attachment. Thanks much, Duncan & Robin Owen s/v Whisper
[Attachment: WiresMelted.jpg<WiresMelted.jpg>]
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X-From: EMAIL
From: "Todd Rickard"
To: "Whisper"
Subject: none
X-WL2K-Date: 2002/11/27 23:44
Date: 27 Nov 2002 23:44:00 -0000
X-WL2K-Type: Private
X-AM-RCPT: wcz99999
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X-Type: email; inmsg
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X-Date: 2002/11/28 18:32:32
X-Status: Replied
Duncan,
My F.P. technician, Mark, was able to talk about the issue with F.P. He is in Flordia
for Thanksgiving, and when he returns I will show him the picture and get all the latest
on what we can do to resolve. I will make sure we get parts to you as needed.
Have a terrific Thanksgiving,
Todd
***
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X-From: EMAIL
From: "Todd Rickard"
To: "Whisper"
Subject: Fischer Panda
X-WL2K-Date: 2002/12/06 22:13
Date: 06 Dec 2002 22:13:00 -0000
X-WL2K-Type: Private
X-AM-RCPT: wcz99999
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X-Date: 2002/12/07 17:47:32
X-Status: Replied
Duncan and Robin,
Here is what I know. Fischer Panda is now "linking" the span between the
converter and the + post output with a solid piece of metal rather than a
fusible link. That means we need to get you a piece of metal to bridge the
gap, or you can make one up in Mexico. Let me know what you want to do and
I will accommodate. The "browning" of the wire loom is supposed to be
normal. After getting this feedback, I went to another AGT I have here in
Seattle, and sure enough the loom is "browning" in the same areas. I guess
I would keep an eye on it, but it is not supposed to "melt" clear through
even if it gets soft. The heat is higher where it passes through the cable
clamps.
I believe I installed a fuse just outside the unit on the + cable. It
should be very close to the unit itself. Can you get back to me on how
close it is to the unit, and what size of fuse it is.
Thanks!
Todd
***
X-In-Reply-To: wcz99999_330
To: "Todd Rickard"
Subject: Re: Fischer Panda
X-Type: Email; Outmail
X-MID: 1106_kg6nnnn
Date: 09 Dec 2002 05:24:04 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.WPTG385
X-Date: 2002/12/09 05:24:06
Hey Todd,
Please rush the right F.P. new version of the part/link/fuse thing to our Alameda
address and we'll get it in our next mail drop in PV. You placed a 400A fuse about 18
inches from the + connection point inside the genset (about 7 inches from the genset
housing).
If you think it would be safer to drop this fuse down to 350A, please include this and a
spare (or two) in the shipment. Thanks so much!
We will keep an eye on it and we have already decided not to use the SSB while running
the genset.
Send parts to:
Duncan Owen
909 Marina Village Parkway, #281
Alameda, CA 94501
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X-From: EMAIL
From: "Brian S. Rickard"
To: "Whisper"
Subject: Buss bar
X-WL2K-Date: 2002/12/19 01:55
Date: 19 Dec 2002 01:55:00 -0000
X-WL2K-Type: Private
X-AM-RCPT: wcz99999
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X-Date: 2002/12/19 18:26:24
X-Status: Replied
Duncan & Robin,
The buss bar to replace the fuse inside the Fischer Panda will be at the
Alameda address by tomorrow, 12/19/02. Fusing externally will be fine for
now, but I will come up with a couple of 350amp fuses and get them to you.
I do need a digital picture or thourough description of the type of fuse.
Is it a blue seas mega fuse, an ANL, a Class T???
I do want you to keep a close eye on the wires that are browning their
insulation. I did get word from Panda that this is normal, but I feel we
should keep an eye on it. If it gets worse, I will come up with a different
plan somehow.
Have a very merry Christmas!
Todd
***
To: "Dave Thompson at Fischer-Panda" <"Dave Thompson">
Cc: "Todd Rickard", "Shea Weston"
Subject: Fischer-Panda AGT 4000 issue
X-Type: Email; Outmail
X-MID: 1226_kg6nnnn
Date: 30 Jan 2003 19:03:39 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.WRD719
X-Date: 2003/01/30 19:11:02
Dave/Todd,
Unfortunately, our Fischer Panda AGT-4000 is acting up again. As you recall, after less
than 50 hours of use (about 70 hours ago), we entirely replaced the VCS due to an
unexplained and occasional "over-voltage" condition. Now we are encountering an almost
identical problem/symptom, and I'm starting to wonder whether the VCS really was the
root cause of the problem.
Re-cap:
Over the course of its first 30-100 hours of use, we blew the internal 400A fuse bar (4
- 100A fuses stacked) three different times (and it started to melt the winding wires).
We thought the VCS was faulty, and even after replaced, when we still had the problem,
we blamed it on our SSB transmissions possibly confusing the VCS -- so we stopped
transmitting on the SSB while the genset was running. Well, several times since, we
have seen the "voltage climb" problem reoccur -- and not while we were transmitting on
the SSB. Also, there is a new symptom: we seem to be over-heating at about the same
time the "over-voltage" problem is occurring.
Recent Changes:
We recently replaced the 400A fuse "bars" with the solid metal conductive bar Todd
Rickard sent us. I also replaced the 400A external ANL fuse with a lower 350A rated
fuse on the external ANL fuse block (about 15" away from the genset (+) connection on
the AWG 4/0 red wire).
The Symptoms are:
About 1 in 3 times, the genset "gets confused" and the amp output does not correctly
adjust downward. Sometimes, after steadily dropping (RPM's and Amps output) as the
batteries accept the charge, the engine will speed up again and jump back up to near max
ampere output and RPM's -- usually around 200A-240A. This happens without having added
any load to the system. Sometimes it just stays at full output from the start and never
comes down.
The voltage slowly climbs from 14.5 or so volts (normal hover voltage is 14.4V for our
AGM's), up to 15, 15.5, then 16 volts. This climb is real and has been verified by
three different volt meters (Link 20, HR Voltmeter, and StatPower 2500 display
voltmeter). I've also verified the voltage level is recognized at the VCS (at the plug
going into the VCS) with my hand-held multi/voltmeter.
Yesterday, when the voltage started climbing, I experimented by unplugging each plug
from the VCS to see if I detected any change in the genset behavior during the climb.
After each combination of plug removal, I checked the amps and the voltage output from
the genset -- there was no change. With the VCS entirely unplugged, the voltage
continued to steadily rise and the amps hovered around 220A input. The state remained
the same after plugging it back in again. I pulled the VCS and checked the internal
1.6A fuse -- it was intact (.3 ohms resistance across the contacts). When I manually
shut off the genset, it would not re-start due to an "over-temperature" fault.
A few times (at about 15.5 volts), the genset "recognizes" its error, the RPM's drop,
the amperes drop, and the hover voltage of 14.4V is resumed. The genset continues to
run without incident until the batteries are full.
Most of the other times I see the voltage climb, I have do something before it blows the
350A fuse (the StatPower 2500 inverter usually stops with an over-voltage fault). Any
attempt to restart immediately usually fails because of an over-temperature condition on
the genset, or if it does restart immediately, the voltage climbs quickly to the
excessive values -- so I shut it off again manually.
Usually, the over-temp condition requires me to wait several hours before the genset is
cool enough to restart. I have been checking/cleaning the intake strainer frequently,
and the oil is clean and topped-up and the coolant is clean and topped up. It is
usually after this that the genset runs fine for a few times (3-10 hours).
The water here is 82F+ degrees and the temp inside the engine room after an hour of
genset run time easily exceeds 100F. I'm starting to wonder if any over-heating may be
causing the genset to completely ignore the VCS control of the throttle/actuator? Maybe
the over-heating is not severe enough to shut down the genset on an over-temp fault
(unless it is stopped once, and the cooling water stops flowing), but is severe enough
to confuse the throttle motor / control? Is this possible? I have had the genset
legitimately "over-heat" and stop when the strainer becomes too clogged -- so I know at
least one of the (three?) thermostatic sensors must be working.
What to do?
We are hoping to head to the South Pacific at the end of March, so a working, reliable
genset is important to us! I'm worried that I may not have sufficient spares or
knowledge to fix this type of problem. Anything you can do to help me troubleshoot and
resolve this before we leave will be greatly appreciated!
Thanks much,
Duncan (& Robin) Owen
s/v Whisper
Bahia Tenacatita, Jalisco Mexico
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X-From: EMAIL
From: "Shea Weston"
To: "Whisper"
Subject: RE: Fischer-Panda AGT 4000 issue
X-WL2K-Date: 2003/02/02 05:10
Date: 02 Feb 2003 05:10:00 -0000
X-WL2K-Type: Private
X-AM-RCPT: wcz99999
X-System-Context: SAILMAIL
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X-MID: wcz99999_608
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X-Type: email; inmsg
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X-Date: 2003/02/03 04:25:10
Duncan,
I'm sitting in LAX waiting for my flight home to SD.
Sorry to hear of the continued problems with the VCS on the AGT. Have you
verified that the throttle motor is not "physically" stuck when it acts-up?
I have seen instances where the throttle "screw" will get stuck at one
extreme or the other. Would you like me to forward your message to tech
support @ Panda in Florida or is Todd dealing with Florida regarding this
issue?
Where are you now? Are you guys frequenting any of the longer distance radio
nets? I spent a great few days in Zihuat on board "El Regalo", a Tayana 52.
We went for a short race on Friday and had a blast! Ed Marril's (from
"Siesta") E-mail seminar went well with Jim Corenman in attendance. Many
people were thrilled to have the Guru there! Jim and I went form boat to
boat on Thursday, Friday and some this morning fixing and tweaking people's
radio/email settings!
Are you having fun yet!?!
Cheers, Shea
***
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X-From: EMAIL
From: "Todd Rickard"
To: "Whisper"
Subject: RE: Fischer-Panda AGT 4000 issue
X-WL2K-Date: 2003/02/04 05:12
Date: 04 Feb 2003 05:12:00 -0000
X-WL2K-Type: Private
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R&D,
As for the Fischer Panda. Has Dave gotten back to you on his thoughts? I
think that based upon a recent conversation I had with him, it could be in
the throttle control motor that governs the RPM's. Has this been looked at
or replaced in the past? I have heard from Dave that he has seen these
cause problems on a couple of units when they overheat. They tend to act
funny or "lock" into an RPM. Otherwise I will need to get more info to FP
and see what they say. One of my guys who has worked for me for the past
couple of years (and who I sent to FP training), took a job with FP in Ft.
Lauderdale in December. So I now have a person at Fischer Panda to help me
get the "scoop". I will do what I can to help solve this problem. Let me
know what you want from my side.
Hope you are having fun.
Todd
***
To: "Shea Weston"
Subject: RE: Fischer Panda AGT-4000 Issue
X-Type: Email; Outmail
X-MID: 1244_kg6nnnn
Date: 05 Feb 2003 20:11:39 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.WPTG385
X-Date: 2003/02/05 20:11:40
Shea,
On the AGT-4, thanks so much for your prompt response. I just heard from Todd Rickard
and he said almost the same thing you did. Todd also has a friend at FP that can help
us with the issue -- so no need to forward it on.
When the problem occurred this morning (16.1V and climbing), I jumped in there and
looked at the throttle control. It looks as though the throttle control threaded
"block" that travels on the spiral rod/screw (that comes out of out of the throttle
motor) had jammed against the nuts that define the maximum travel-distance on the spiral
rod. A couple of taps on the end of the rod "freed" the jammed block and it quickly
settled to the correct position about mid-way on the spiral rod.
The two nuts (on both the max and minimum travel distance) are still the factory
settings -- as marked by dollops of red paint on each set of nuts.
At first glance, it looks like a simple design issue with the throttle screw mechanism -
- maybe a washer or spring and washer might prevent it from jamming. We'll wait to hear
from Fischer Panda on their suggested resolution. Maybe the overheating and over-
voltage events are related -- but caused by the stuck throttle?
Thanks for suggesting we look at this! We feel much closer to a solution -- and it also
explains the intermittent nature of the problem.
Duncan (& Robin)
P.S. We are also considering a major revision to our itinerary -- possibly staying in
Mexico and the Sea of Cortez next season. We'll keep you posted!
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From: "Shea Weston"
To: "Whisper"
Subject: RE: Fischer Panda AGT-4000 Issue
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Date: 06 Feb 2003 02:31:00 -0000
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Duncan,
Great to hear that the problem may only be the throttle "screw" jamming.
I've seen them jam in the off position, but not at the full-throttle
position. There may be a couple of solutions:
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From: "Shea Weston"
To: "Whisper"
Subject: RE: Fischer Panda AGT-4000 Issue
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Date: 06 Feb 2003 15:36:00 -0000
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Duncan,
A correction to my previous email:
I forgot that Panda removes the Kubota supplied throttle stop screws from
the injection pump. If you look closely you'll see two treaded ears on top
of the injection pump where they should be. If you could find the
appropriate metric screws to replace them, it should help or eliminate the
jamming problem. The idea is to stop the movement of the throttle arm before
the block contacts the stop nuts.
Cheers, Shea
***
To: "Todd Rickard"
Cc: "Noelle Hope"
Subject: Status of prior requests, new request, and a question...
X-Type: Email; Outmail
X-MID: 1364_kg6nnnn
Date: 19 Apr 2003 21:09:18 -0000
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X-Date: 2003/04/19 21:23:14
Todd,
First, I wanted to ask for an update on the status of our last requests:
- Aqua Signal steaming light replacement lens
- Simrad AP20 rudder feedback mechanism (RF shielded version)
- Replacement throttle motor for the Ficher Panda AGT-4 (or whatever fix FP recommends
for stuck throttle)
- Simrad silicone grease for anemometer
- Our Simrad IS11 depth sounder display (fixed and returned as a spare)
Second, I wanted to add an item to this list:
- ** NEW ** Fischer-Panda AGT-4 exhaust-coolant mixer.
We found a severely corroded and restricted genset muffler (exhaust-coolant mixer) in
the Panda. It funneled down to a 1/2" opening and was leaking salt water through pin-
holes at the elbow. I'll send the full scoop in another note. If there is a
corrosion-resistant steel replacement for this mixer already available, please add that
to my list of stuff above. This would be a warranty replacement.
And third, we discovered we can't really do simple adjustments on our Volvo TMD22P
without one or more of 23 special tools that must be acquired from Volvo. What would
you recommend we do? Should we contact Volvo, Hallberg-Rassy, a Volvo dealer of your
recommendation -- or can you help us select and acquire the tools we need?
The part #'s are 885018 thru 885038, 885041, and 885139. Let me know if you have an
opinion on which ones we should get (if it is easy for you to find out), and what we
should expect to pay? Please add any time you spend on this to our bill.
Noelle should have our CC# and requested shipping address (my folks in Michigan) from
our last note.
Thanks!
Duncan
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From: "Noelle Hope"
To: "Whisper"
Subject: Fischer Panda
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Date: 21 May 2003 23:20:00 -0000
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Duncan,
Regarding the Fischer Panda: We need the serial numbers off the motor in
order to get a new exhaust elbow from Fischer Panda, and we will need to get
the corroded one back from you. About the heavy oil soot, clean the sooty
area and run the engine with all DC and AC circuits on (lights, radio
,inverter, heaters, etc. on). Run for an hour, and check to see condition of
soot. It sounds as though the rings didn't seat, and you are getting
blow-by. There is an adjustment that can be made to the throttle to solve
the sticking; do not adjust the nuts on the throttle arm though. There are
stop screws that can be adjusted out, they should have a little tag with
seizing wire through to keep them from being turned.
Noelle Hope
Sound Rigging & Yacht Services, Ltd.
2470 Westlake Ave. N. Ste. 102
Seattle, WA 98109 - U.S.A.
Ph: +206-283-8845 FAX: +206-283-0391
noelleh@soundrig.com
http://www.soundrig.com
***
X-In-Reply-To: wcz99999_956
To: "Noelle Hope"
Cc: "Todd Rickard"
Subject: Re: Fischer Panda
X-Type: Email; Outmail
X-MID: 1453_kg6nnnn
Date: 26 May 2003 23:18:36 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.WHV861
X-Date: 2003/05/26 23:18:38
Noelle, Todd, & F.P. interested parties...
The genset information is as follows:
Model: AGT4000
Mfgr: 2001
G-N: A02-012-016
12V, 280A, 1900-2800 RPM
Engine info:
Kubota 1cyl diesel
EA300-B-ICEMASTER1S1
Serial No: 719845
Windings Casing:
W02456
Dave Thompson took all of this info from me last year when he did my 30 hour check-up.
Fischer Panda should already have me on file.
As far as the exhaust elbow, have they changed they changed the material they use for
the elbow? My concern would be that I will need more than one spare if they were made
out of the same material (and it degrades every couple of years). I'd need extra
gaskets too. As far as returning the one that is on the genset now, I'd send it once I
have the other(s) in hand and installed. Also note, the elbow was cut open and had the
internally corroded pipe replaced, then it was re-welded -- no surprises when they see
it has been "field-repaired".
I think I can adjust the throttle downward using a set screw that is covered by a red
(painted) cap (I don't see a nut with seizing wire). If I understand the note
correctly, this is the preferred method of solving the problem -- not by moving the
"stop" nuts on the throttle control motor screw.
For the sooting problem and the possibility of "blow-by", the process you recommend is
the process I performed in early April 2002. The exhaust elbow was cleaned out and the
corrosion holes were patched. I ensured the valve clearance settings were correct, and
I drained the water out of the "dry" side of the exhaust to remove any possible back-
pressure. Then I ran the genset for just over an hour under full load. The same sooty
exhaust water collected in the dry-exhaust run, the sooty bubbles "blurped" out of the
water separator water drain, and the soot again began collecting on the hull. If the
rings never seated properly, how can we get this fixed? Would this be a field repair?
The boat will be in San Carlos Mexico this July and August and this will be our only
window for a major genset repair. Let me know how we will proceed and what is/is not
covered by the warranty.
If we could solve the dry exhaust's "wet, sooty water gurgle and spit" at the same time,
this would be a huge win. Someone suggested a larger water-lift muffler might do the
trick -- giving the water separator time the time it needs to actually separate the
water from the exhaust?
I'll look forward to the plan for getting this repaired. Thanks much for your response.
And Noelle, thanks for shipping the other stuff!
Duncan Owen
s/v Whisper
To: "Todd Rickard"
Subject: Hey Todd, Duncan here...
X-Type: Email; Outmail
X-MID: 1846_kg6nnnn
Date: 04 Mar 2004 23:30:02 -0000
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X-Date: 2004/03/04 23:30:04
Hi Todd,
From now on, let's use this email -- we pick it up every day now on the boat.
While you anxiously await the outcome of Whisper's Monday haul-out -- to examine/fix the
rudder log leak issue; I'm hoping you can help me with another problem -- this time with
the Fischer Panda.
I got around to a pre-departure check and oil change today and discovered two urgent
issues.
The first is the exhaust "cooler" elbow (the gizmo with a water intake and temp sensor
between the engine block and the exhaust hose) has failed again. In May 2003 we had
some corrosion removed and patch-welds made to the old cooler rather than hassle with a
return and warranty replacement of the elbow. This year, it has again corroded and
cracked -- now at the throat where it comes off the engine block. There is quite a mess
inside the capsule where it has leaked. I need a new exhaust cooler, the three
fastening nuts, and a new gasket. I hope FP has improved the design and metal quality -
- the current one is a rusted, cracked, corroded, sooty mess (and a huge pain to get off
the engine).
The other issue is a crack in the "base plate" of the Kubota engine. This is the plate
on the side opposite of the cylinder head -- it looks like it's aluminum with 8 small
bolts holding it on. It has cracked at the lower left corner where one of the bolts
fastens. This is also the plate that contains the engine information! Which by the way
is:
AGT 4000 2001 12V
A02-012-016 (serial #)
EA300-B-ICEMASTER (Kubota Engine type)
I need a new plate and gasket.
I need all these parts ASAP. When I'm sure you have the parts in hand, we can figure
out how to get the parts down here to PV. We may have someone we know coming down -- or
we can Alaska Air Freight them into PV.
Although I think this is probably covered under warranty, urgency dictates a speedy
process. In order to import the parts duty-free, I have to turn the old one over to
customs or prove they have been destroyed. I can take digital pics if FP needs proof of
these failures, but they would not get the old parts back. This was the problem last
May -- and why we chose to "fix" the exhaust elbow locally vs. getting a warranty
replacement.
If a warranty request is easy, I'll want it to cover the parts and the installation
labor. As soon as I can get these parts, I will be paying the local diesel mechanic to
install and test them for me. He charges $45US/hour and it will take him at least a few
hours. If there is a $150 deductible, I'll pay it.
However, if the warranty request will slow things down in any way -- skip it -- we
urgently need these parts -- we were hoping to be ready to leave for the Marquesas by
3/15! I'll do whatever you recommend.
Let me know if you can help us with this one, or if I should contact someone at Fischer
Panda directly. Sara Jewell (FP customer support?) had followed up with me last October
to see if I was still having genset issues. Since I thought I had them solved, I told
her I'd contact her if anything else cropped up. Let me know if you think I should
contact her.
Thanks again -- so very much,
Duncan
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From: "Todd Rickard"
To: "Whisper"
Subject: RE: Hey Todd, Duncan here...
X-WL2K-Date: 2004/03/05 22:18
Date: 05 Mar 2004 22:18:00 -0000
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Duncan,
Try calling Mark Yerex at Fischer Panda on Monday morning.
If you don't get anywhere let me know ASAP and I will get things
going to hopefully meet your timeline. Mark used to work here
at Sound Rigging, and if you tell him you are a customer of ours
he should give you that "extra special" service. ( :
Todd
***
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From: "Todd Rickard"
To: "Whisper"
Subject: RE: Hey Todd, Duncan here...
X-WL2K-Date: 2004/03/05 22:42
Date: 05 Mar 2004 22:42:00 -0000
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Duncan,
Could we get a couple of pictures on the FP issues this?
Let me know,
Todd
***
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X-From: EMAIL
From: <support@fischerpanda.com>
To: "Whisper"
Cc: "Sara Jewell"
Subject: PMS04-012016 AGT 4000
X-WL2K-Date: 2004/03/09 16:25
Date: 09 Mar 2004 16:25:00 -0000
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Duncan,
We will be providing you with most of the parts for your repair under
policy. Please give me a call and we can discuss the details and shipping
arrangements.
Thank You,
Mark Yerex, Senior Technician
support@fischerpanda.com
***
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X-From: EMAIL
From: "Todd Rickard"
To: "Whisper"
Subject: RE: Hey Todd, Duncan here...
X-WL2K-Date: 2004/03/09 15:37
Date: 09 Mar 2004 15:37:00 -0000
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Duncan,
Got your pictures, any word from Fischer Panda?
Todd
***
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X-MID: 1860_kg6nnnn
To: "Todd Rickard"
Subject: RE: Whisper's Fischer Panda & rudder update
X-Type: Email; Outmail
Date: 11 Mar 2004 22:47:23 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.WHV861
X-Date: 2004/03/11 22:47:24
Todd,
Quick update on the progress here in PV. Got a hold of mark on Monday, then again on
Tuesday to find out what they would do. The parts are on their way to friends that will
bring them down next week. They are also throwing in some new internal motor mounts
because the old ones may have been degraded by the leaking oil. In the end, it should
cost me less than $100 in parts and $200 in labor. Not bad at all.
we are back in the water at Paradise Village now getting a full clean & wax. The rig
looks good and the engine is running fine, so the genset is really our biggest critical
path task. Hopefully, we'll have it working again by the end of next week.
On another genset topic, I found an empty hose barb in front of the crankcase plate -- a
barb without a hose connected to it. Mark surmised it might be part of the old plumbing
before you put in the anti-siphon. Any recollection of what that hose barb was for? It
is down low, behind the water pump.
Thanks for your help on this, and please say hello and thanks to Jack Heady too. Tell
Jack he needs to update us on his plan -- post-fire -- if he has any yet.
Thanks and hi to Lara too.
Robin & Duncan
X-In-Reply-To: wcz99999_134
To: "Todd Rickard"
Subject: RE: Whisper's Fischer Panda & rudder update
X-Type: Email; Outmail
X-MID: 1866_kg6nnnn
Date: 13 Mar 2004 20:36:40 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
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X-Date: 2004/03/13 20:36:42
Todd,
Thanks for the reply. Mark did take care of me. My only surprise was the engine and
exhaust elbow are only covered for one year. But since he only charged me $50 for the
part (and nothing for the cracked plate), I didn't haggle. Hopefully. I'll get the
parts next week, we'll re-assemble, and all will be well. I like your theory on the
empty hose barb, and it is good that the wire sheathing is replaced on the new units --
hopefully the exhaust elbow is now stainless or something more impervious to corrosion.
Thanks so much for your help on all of this. We are probably about 7-10 days from being
ready to leave. We'll go out to anchor fist and wait for weather. Ideally, that will
be a week from today!!!
Thanks again and we'll see you when you come visit us in the South Pacific!
Duncan (& Robin)
s/v Whisper
X-From: "Whisper"
To: "Fischer Panda -- Mark Yerex" <support@fischerpanda.com>
Cc: "Fischer Panda -- Sara Jewell" , "Todd Rickard"
X-Type: Email; Outmail
From: "Whisper"
Subject: Whisper's AGT 4000 Genset
X-Via: HF.WHV861
X-MID: 2329_kg6nnnn
X-Date: 2004/06/25 16:45:19
Mark,
We are in Tahiti and we are having trouble with our AGT 4000 DC genset again. We now
have 636 hours on the genset and it is almost 3 years old. I believe you already have
all our info on file, so I'll dive into the description of the problems.
1.) The biggest/newest problem, and the one I'll need your help finding the cause of --
is that the genset peak output (usually around 240 Amps) has dropped down to about 160-
180 Amps. The 735Ah AGM bank voltage climbs from say 12.0V (12.0 with a 7-15A load),to
13.4V and hovers there. The Amps input to the battery bank peaks at 155(ish) Amps. The
engine appears to be near full throttle and running under full load (as it normally
runs). Where (and how) should I start looking for the cause of this problem?
2.) The second problem is that a deeply discharged bank (or any high load) will usually
cause the genset to overheat. I lost a raw water pump impeller vane somewhere in the
cooling system and I'm not sure where to start looking to find it. The overheating
started about the same time the genset amp-output dropped -- is this just a coincidence?
Is there a fresh-water side pump that can fail? Is there a way to troubleshoot the
problem by testing/removing individual temp sensors on the block/exhaust/windings/other
thermostats? Must I find the missing vane before trying to run it again with a new
impeller?
3.) Yesterday, I flushed the 3 month old anti-freeze/coolant out of the fresh-water
side and noticed it had gone from clean green to milky-green-brown in 3 months. It
seemed unusual that the coolant would be so dirty so fast. It was also hard to detect
because clean green coolant seemed to float on top of the milky/dirty coolant in the
reservoir. Since the coolant level was still full, I assume there is probably not a
problem/leak within the heat exchanger?
4.) I also have a problem where the air-cleaner intake housing shakes loose from its
engine mounting points. I have tightened the two 5mm hex head screws down the best I
can, but it continues to shake loose (and damage the threads on the screws). The screws
also do not seat properly (too long? corrosion in thread holes?). I cannot remove the
air cleaner housing to more closely examine the problem without removing the banjo
union/fuel inflow/fuel solenoid. I have been reluctant to do so because I'm not sure
what replacement seats/washers I would need to put it back together again. Can I remove
this fitting without replacement parts available? If so, how? Is there a better
solution now for securing the air cleaner housing? It appears to be connected by only
the 2 small screws, but it's top-heavy, side-mount will predispose it to shaking loose.
What do you recommend?
5.) After an oil change, the engine oil pressure does not come up fast enough to allow
the engine to stay running. I attempt to start the genset 7-9 times before it will
stay running and the green oil pressure lamp will stay green. Is this a problem I can
easily work around upon first start-up after an oil change? Maybe some way to
temporarily bypass the oil pressure sensor that shuts down the engine? Is this a
possible indication of a larger problem?
6.) This is a problem we have had since 2002, but the dirty burning diesel seems to be
getting worse. First, there is a thin cloud of smoke in the engine room when the unit
is running (and black soot is covering the foam inside of the capsule). I do not see a
leak at the exhaust elbow. But please note: this elbow is a custom made, fabricated-in-
Mexico, stainless steel exhaust elbow. We used the old corroded/failed one as a
template and had this temporary one made to get us by until you sent us a replacement
(March 2004, PMS04-012016). The one you sent me in March did not have the needed hose-
barb to connect the exhaust hose, so I left the temporary elbow in place and we left for
the Marquesas. Along with the smoke in the engine room, there is a smell of diesel
fuel, but no sign of a fuel leak anywhere.
Second, the soot expelled in the exhaust water (separated at the water separator) is
severe. Large black-liquid soot clouds billow out into the water under the boat
(through the water separation thru-hull. The oily soot accumulates all down the side of
our hull & bottom paint. The accumulated oily exhaust water that does not get dumped
through the water separator, eventually spurts out the stern exhaust thru-hull. It is a
mess and probably indicates a larger problem. The engine does not burn oil. Fuel
consumption seems to be within specifications. The fuel is clean and the same stuff
that burns just fine on our main engine.
In 2002, Shea Weston in San Diego tested our exhaust back-pressure (2 PSI) and exhaust
runs, and everything looked fine (on Todd's original install). In 2003 and 2004, a
mechanic in Mexico had checked our cylinder compression and injector and declared they
were good. He fixed (welded/sealed) our original exhaust elbow the first time it
failed, and fabricated the second temporary stainless elbow that is on now.
Normally, we only load the genset (just) to its 240A capacity for about 10-20 minutes,
then as it tapers down, and the amps drop, we add loads (back up to 240A). Since it is
our only charging source (other than a small alternator on our main engine), we wait
until the amps are down to 30-60A in before we shut the genset off. We are running the
genset 1-2 hours, twice a day (morning/evening) when it works correctly. Does this
"sooty" symptom help diagnose any of the other problems? Is it severe enough to worry
about premature engine failure/fire? Is there a series of trouble shooting steps I can
undertake in the field to find out the root cause?
Any help on these issues will be greatly appreciated. Is there a Fischer Panda
technician somewhere between Tahiti and New Zealand that can help us with these
problems? Give us some guidance on what to do next.
Thanks, Duncan Owen s/v Whisper
X-Received: from KUZ533(Sailmail-3.1.930-B2FHIM$/) by wcz99999-1 with Pactor3/FBB-
2/13930.0KHz id wcz99999_806; 26 Jun 2004 01:39:56 -0000
X-From: EMAIL
From: "Sara Jewell"
To: "Whisper"
Cc: <support@fischerpanda.com>
Subject: PMA04-012016 Whisper's AGT 4000 Genset
X-WL2K-Date: 2004/06/25 20:18
Date: 25 Jun 2004 20:18:00 -0000
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Dear Duncan: Quick question: how many hours are on the generator?
Mark believes that many of the problems that you have listed are
interrelated.
The raw water pump circulates water through a heat exchanger cooling the
fresh water. If you have lost an impellor blade, there may be a
restriction in this water flow. We suggest that you back flush your raw
water system. To do this please follow this procedure:
1. Close your raw water intake thru-hull or sea cock, then remove the
impellor from the raw water pump and reinstall the cover plate.
2. Then remove the raw water hose from the sea strainer and place into a
bucket.
3. Find and remove the rubber hose that injects the raw water into the
exhaust mixing elbow. Carefully, back flush through the entire raw water
circuit using a garden hose or pressured water of some type. Any debris
including impellor blades should be forced out and into the bucket or
trapped into the raw water pump housing.
4. After back flushing, reassemble all components.
Fresh water cooling circuit:
Confirm that circulation pump is operating. To test this pump and also
as a way to bleed your fuel system:
1. Remove the fuel relay, from it's' socket on the generator (the fuel
relay is the one on the right as you are looking at the 3 relays). The
cap on the relay can be carefully removed using a screw driver. This
exposes the contacts of the relay.
2. Reinsert the relay, push the relay back in its socket.
3. Turn the stop/start panel on to the on position (assuming the
generator is not in auto start mode).
3. Then with your finger, close the contact on the relay. Doing this
energizes the fuel circuit which includes the fuel pump, fuel solenoid,
the fresh water circulation pump and the throttle actuator.
All of these components should be energized when you close the relay.
While the relay is closed you should be able to feel and hear the
circulation pump running. (The approximately 2" diameter by 5" long
cylinder located near the cylinder head.)
Your coolant discoloration maybe related to the overheating and lack of
flow in the cooling system. If possible, drain & refill the coolant
before continuing with the bleed procedure. With fresh coolant in the
system, then monitor its condition regularly.
To bleed the fresh water coolant pump:
1. While the circulation pump is not running open the radiator cap
and check coolant level—it should be approx. ½ inch below the top.
2. Open the green bleed petcock and bleed out any air at that
location. Close petcock and energize circulation pump. Let run for about
1 minute.
3. Stop running circulation pump and bleed again. Then energize the
pump again and you should be able to see coolant movement inside of the
coolant tank. If so, continue to run pump for 2-3 minutes, if not
continue to bleed system per procedure.
The coolant also flows through and draws heat away from the diode
mounting block. We believe your output problem maybe related to the
overheat and may have caused one of your 3 diodes to fail. If you remove
the cover over the top of your output cables, you can see the 3 diodes
mounted under it. Please examine these for any visible signs of damage.
Please let Mark know and if possible, please send along digital photos
of any damage found.
Your smoke and exhaust soot issues may be related to different loading
conditions caused by the overheat and diode problem. But depending upon
the number of hours you currently have on your generator, it may be a
good idea to remove your injector and have it cleaned and serviced.
Your air cleaner housing bolts should be the right length assuming the
air intake gasket is still in place. If the gasket is still in place,
for the time being, torque the bolts. If the bolts will draw the
manifold tight to the gasket, re-torque and continue to monitor. If the
gasket is missing, please let us know. If the bolts are indeed too long,
please advise us of this also but in the short term grinding or filing
them shorter may be a short term solution. A loose intake manifold maybe
the source of the thin cloud of smoke in your engine room.
Please let us know how it is going. Thanks.
Sara Jewell
Director, After Sales Support and Marketing
Fischer Panda Generators
800-508-6494 954-462-2800
***
To: "Fischer Panda -- Mark Yerex" <support@fischerpanda.com>
Cc: "Fischer Panda -- Sara Jewell"
X-Type: Email; Outmail
Subject: Fwd: Re: PMA04-012016 Whisper's AGT 4000 Genset
X-Via: SAILMAIL
X-Date: 2004/06/30 02:55:27
----- Original Message -----
To: "Fischer Panda -- Sara Jewell"
Cc: "Fischer Panda -- Mark Yerex" <support@fischerpanda.com>
Subject: Re: PMA04-012016 Whisper's AGT 4000 Genset
Date: 28 Jun 2004 17:14:02 -0000
From: "Whisper"
Sara & Mark,
Thank you so much for the instructions. This was very helpful. Here is a little more
information that may be helpful in debugging the problems. The generator has 636.5
hours on it and is 3 years old. The injectors and compression were checked last year
and the injector was gently cleaned (not serviced). Compression was good. The engine
"sounds" like it is running normally.
After trying your recommended processes, it appears that the overheating problem may be
solved. Here is what I did/learned. Hopefully, it will help us diagnose the other
problems.
A.) I flushed the raw water cooling system with fresh water and compressed air. I
captured the contents of the system and found about 1/4 cup of soft gray and black
film/scale, but no obvious remnants of the lost impeller blade.
B.) The coolant circulation pump works electrically and the magnetic "aquarium pump"
type impeller spins, but pumps very little coolant. I see nominal circulation action by
looking into the reservoir. When I open the draincock (with a hose attached and routed
to a bowl) and run the pump, it slowly drains the reservoir. It takes about one minute
to drain the tank. This means the pump is pumping, but maybe not at sufficient volume
for cooling? I've replaced the coolant frequently, so I don't suspect there is clogging
in the coolant-side of the heat exchanger. The pump is a Johnson Pump 12V DC type
CM30P7-1 (NO 10-24903-03, Mfg No 00979, Mfg Dt 001207). I pulled it out and tested it
in a bucket of water. Once primed, it seems to work fine and pump well, but that is
without any circulation system back-pressure.
C.) I checked the diodes when they were cool. Visually, they look intact without any
sign of external damage. I used the diode continuity test on my multi-meter and they
all (6 diodes in three pairs?) seem to be functioning fine -- while they were cool...
D.) I started the genset after flushing the raw water side and bleeding the coolant
side. Over the next 15 minutes, I felt the various hoses/fittings. The raw water side
was very cool to the touch -- cool all the way to the exhaust elbow discharge. Does
this mean that not much heat is being exchanged? Water was discharging into the exhaust
as normal. The coolant-side reservoir and hoses were all cool at start-up. These hoses
and the reservoir heated up (could still touch, but were very hot) fairly quickly --
within 10 minutes. But maybe that's normal?
E.) Just after starting the genset, I tested each of the three AC terminals for voltage
-- each read 8.42V AC (if I understand how to read my multi-meter?). The DC output
voltage at the +/- terminals on the genset was 14.05V DC (lower than normal). The
maximum amps in was around 180 Amps on a well discharged (11.95V) 735Ah AGM house bank.
Normally, this would be about 250 Amps input.
*** Note: this is while the genset is still cool to the touch -- the diodes had not yet
heated up, but the output was still low.
The amps stayed at 180A for about 10-15 minutes, then the throttle started backing off
and the amps started dropping. After 30 minutes, we were at 62 Amps input. Normally,
this would start at 250 Amps-in, and still be up over 100 Amps after a half hour. The
symptoms are initial low output (about 72% of normal), and a quick drop in Amps. What
should I test/look for to debug this problem? Should I check the VCS?
F.) After about an hour (without overheating!) I shut down the genset. While hot, I
tested the diodes again with my multi-meter, but could not get a reliable test reading.
Once they cooled again -- the multi-meter said they were working.
G.) I tightened the Air Intake manifold the best I could. It seems to be as tight as
it will go, but there is still perceptible movement in the housing if I grab it and rock
it side-to-side. The smoke still accumulates in the engine room. There was a small
piece of fiber "air filter" inside the housing that was very black/oily. I've
temporarily replaced it with a piece of an oil absorption diaper. For the air intake
manifold, I may want to get new/spare screws, a new gasket, and a sheet of the material
you recommend for the air filter.
The back-flushing of the raw water cooling system and bleeding of the coolant pump seems
to have solved the over-heating problem. The small amount of scale discharged concerns
me that the heat exchanger may clog again. Has the design of either the heat exchanger,
or the coolant pump been improved over the last 3 years? Would it be a good idea for me
to carry spares of both of these for a quick in-the-field swap? Should I carry a spare
fuel injector too? What would all these spares cost?
We will leave Tahiti this week. We will be in nearby Moorea next week. If I need
replacement/spare parts, it would be best to get them Fed-Ex'd to Moorea early this
week. I have the shipping address of a Yacht Services agent in Moorea. We will pick-up
visiting family in Huahine on July 11th. I must have the genset working again before
the 11th!
For today, I'll focus on diagnosing the low genset output (just in case I need parts for
that too). What are my next steps in the troubleshooting? Please; I need to hear
something today so I can make some progress tomorrow. The time difference and our
twice-daily (morning & evening) send/reception of SailMail slows our communication
turnaround times. I need to get this figured out and fixed ASAP.
Also, will running/using the genset for 2-3 hours daily with the low output harm it?
Other than a 70A engine alternator, the genset is our only charging source!
Thanks much!
Duncan Owen
----- End of Original Message -----
X-In-Reply-To: wcz99999_822
To: "Fischer Panda -- Mark Yerex" <support@fischerpanda.com>
Cc: "Sara Jewell"
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016 Whisper's AGT 4000 Genset
X-Type: Email; Outmail
X-MID: 2343_kg6nnnn
Date: 30 Jun 2004 12:54:56 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.WHV861
X-Date: 2004/06/30 12:54:58
Mark/Sara,
Mark, I got your note yesterday. I had hoped to hear from someone today so I could
begin troubleshooting.
I think you will find all the information in the previous 2 notes I've sent. Sorry to
bombard you with all this at once. The throttle is "full" when I'm at 180 amps
(normally 250 Amps). It backs off slowly after about 10 minutes (normally 20-30 minutes
when batteries at 11.9-12.0V).
Yes, I do have a gasket on the intake manifold -- it is very thin, but there. I'll
remove the oilsorb filter and just leave it out for now. I did this 2 months ago, so
I'm not sure that has anything to do with the sooting problem (a problem we've had since
the first install in 2001). The engine seems to run normally, then slow as the
batteries are charged (and speed up again if I add a large load).
What processes can I use to test the windings? The VCS? The Diodes? How can I get to
the source of the low output? I reported the voltages (AC & DC) in my last note. Do
those look right? Let me know.
Thanks,
Duncan Owen
s/v Whisper
X-In-Reply-To: wcz99999_822
To: "Fischer Panda -- Mark Yerex" <support@fischerpanda.com>
Cc: "Sara Jewell"
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016 Whisper's AGT 4000 Genset
X-MID: 2351_kg6nnnn
X-Type: Email; Outmail
Date: 01 Jul 2004 17:45:26 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.KUZ533
X-Date: 2004/07/01 17:45:28
Mark/Sara,
Mark, I had hoped to hear from someone in the last three days so I could begin
troubleshooting.
We celebrated our first full day of successful genset runs yesterday. I guess it was
too early to celebrate.
This morning, with deeply discharged batteries, the genset started, ran, and amps-in
rose as high as 210 amps. This led me to believe that all the short bulk charges during
the overheat problem left our batteries very discharged. My theory was that I might --
with a working genset -- coax the batteries back to accepting a full 240A charge. I am
starting to suspect a problem with my batteries. They are Lifeline AGM's and they may
not like so much bulk & absorption charging without ever seeing a decent float charge.
We have not given them a decent float charge with our main engine for at least a month.
About 10-15 minutes into this mornings run, we heard a loud clunk from the genset, and
the amps temporarily dropped to 180, but then quickly climbed to 200 again. I looked at
the running genset, but could not see any external signs/sources of the noise. About 10
minutes later, the engine overheated and quit.
Now I am back where I was a week ago. The raw water system is cool and running fine.
The coolant side is fresh and flowing -- though hot. I gave you the results of my diode
tests (cold & hot) and my AC and DC voltages at the winding terminals. Where do I go
from here? What processes can I use to test the windings? The VCS? The Diodes? How
can I get to the source of the overheating and the low output?
My frustration level is increasing rapidly. I'm desperate for a reliable charging
system that will get me to New Zealand.
Thanks,
Duncan Owen
s/v Whisper
To: "Fischer Panda -- Sara Jewell", "Fischer Panda -- Mark
Yerex" <support@fischerpanda.com>
Cc: "Todd Rickard"
Subject: Am I on my own?
X-Type: Email; Outmail
X-MID: 2395_kg6nnnn
Date: 13 Jul 2004 17:07:45 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.KUZ533
X-Date: 2004/07/13 17:39:46
Mark/Sara,
I received one response on my overheating issue on 6/25 from Sara. On 6/28, I received
a quick "I'll get back to you tomorrow" from Mark. Since then, I've sent you three
additional notes -- without any responses. Am I on my own with my overheat problem?
Todd, is there any way you can call these guys and find out why I'm so far down/off
their priority list? I've asked for help troubleshooting the specific area of overheat,
parts price quotes for a new heat exchanger/coolant circ pump, etc. -- and help figuring
out why the unit now stays in "automatic mode" (vs. manual run mode) as the default. I
have four notes full of my questions and my debugging processes here that I can re-send
if they did not receive them. Any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated. I
really feel like I'm on my own out here.
Thanks for any help you can provide.
Duncan
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2/18624.0KHz id wcz99999_940; 14 Jul 2004 23:32:45 -0000
X-From: EMAIL
From: "Sara Jewell"
To: "Whisper"
Cc: <service@fischerpanda.com>,
Subject: PMA04-012016 Whisper
X-WL2K-Date: 2004/07/14 15:07
Date: 14 Jul 2004 15:07:00 -0000
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Dear Duncan: We are sorry we are late getting back to you, but we have
been very short staffed for three weeks and the holiday gave us two
short, busy weeks. We truly regret your inconvenience.
Mark explains that he doesn't believe there should be any blockages in
the coolant side of your flow. Coolant should flow from the pump through
the diode block, then through the engine, heat exchanger and return to
the pump. A small by pass hose sends some flow through the coolant tank
which also acts as an expansion tank plumbed off the heat exchanger. It
sounds like you have removed and examined the circulation pump and as
long as the "coolant" flow into the bucket is 6-8 gals per minute, the
pump should be okay. It may however, be a good idea to remove the
circulation pump and then completely remove the heat exchanger from the
generator capsule and if possible, have it professionally serviced
(boiled out) by a radiator shop or if need be, you can fill both the raw
water and fresh water passages with either a mild muriatic acid solution
or vinegar which is less aggressive.
Your raw water system flows from the raw water pump, to and through your
heat exchanger, possibly through a siphon break, then returns to and is
injected into the exhaust elbow. Your raw water flow should be a minimum
7-11 liters per minute. This can be measured in a bucket at an above
water level thru-hull, or removing the water exhaust hose from either
the air water separator (if installed) or at the thru-hull after the
water-lift muffler. If your water flow is at the lower end of this
range, that could also be contributing to your overheating. Low flow
could be due to internal pump housing, plate or cam wear, or build-up
through the heat exchanger passages. The high temp shut downs are
triggered by one of your two or switches. One is located at your exhaust
elbow and one is between the starter and the coolant tank. Both are
normally closed switches. If you have an engine temperature overheat,
the temperature fault light should remain lit after the generator shuts
down and will remain lit until the switch resets. With a multi meter you
can test continuity through the switches to determine which of these two
have caused the shutdown. It is possible, but sounds unlikely that one
of these switches is opening prematurely. The switch is rated to open 98
degrees C or approximately 210 F. You can test these switches with
boiling water if need be.
Regarding your problems with auto mode. The red LED light on the battery
monitor should only be lit when the battery voltage is below your
turn-on threshold which you have apparently set at 12 volts. Next to the
LED light on the battery monitor module is a small hole inside of which
is a small momentary switch used for testing the battery monitor.
Pushing this momentary switch once with a paper clip or small screw
driver should turn off the LED. It is also possible that the sense lead
connected to terminal 1 and 2 is not making proper connection or an
inline fuse to the battery has blown and is not supplying voltage to the
monitor. You are correct in that to engage and disengage in automatic
mode you press the start button once while the generator is running.
Blinking green fault light is manual mode; solid green light is
automatic mode. If the start/stop panel continues to turn on in the auto
mode, try disconnecting the wires at terminal 13 & 14 on the back of the
panel which will take away the trigger signal coming from the battery
monitor.
Regarding your comment about soot and smoke, Mark suspects your injector
as the cause of this. However, on the intake manifold the air is drawn
into the air filter area through several small rubber tubes that are
used to quiet the air intake. If these have somehow become clogged, they
could also contribute to soot & smoke. If these are dirty and clogged,
they can be cleaned with a mild spray degreaser and rinsed out with
water & dried.
We hope that these explanations help. Please keep us informed. Thank
you.
Prices for the following items:
1. Coolant Circulation Pump (J101-24480-03) $186.25
2. Heat exchanger: about $665.00
3. Air intake manifold fiber filter, mounting screws, gasket: about
$30.00
4. Fuel injector: about $125.00
Sara Jewell
Director, After Sales Support and Marketing
Fischer Panda Generators
800-508-6494 954-462-2800
Mark/Sara,
I received one response on my overheating issue on 6/25 from Sara. On
6/28, I received a quick "I'll get back to you tomorrow" from Mark.
Since then, I've sent you three additional notes -- without any
responses. Am I on my own with my overheat problem?
Todd, is there any way you can call these guys and find out why I'm so
far down/off their priority list? I've asked for help troubleshooting
the specific area of overheat, parts price quotes for a new heat
exchanger/coolant circ pump, etc. -- and help figuring out why the unit
now stays in "automatic mode" (vs. manual run mode) as the default. I
have four notes full of my questions and my debugging processes here
that I can re-send if they did not receive them. Any help you can
provide will be greatly appreciated. I really feel like I'm on my own
out here.
Thanks for any help you can provide.
Duncan
***
X-MID: 2454_kg6nnnn
To: "Fischer Panda -- Sara Jewell", "Fischer Panda -- Mark
Yerex" <support@fischerpanda.com>
Subject: More help for Whisper's AGT 4000?
X-Type: Email; Outmail
Date: 05 Aug 2004 00:51:05 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.WHV861
X-Date: 2004/08/05 00:51:08
Mark/Sara,
After another round of flushing, cleaning, probing, and a raw water-pump rebuild, I have
resolved the overheating issue on our AGT 4000. The originally missing impeller blade
was jammed sideways in the raw water pump output elbow -- enough to restrict the flow,
but not enough to be forced out with pressure water/compressed air. I found and removed
it when I rebuilt the raw water pump.
My new problem is one we have already talked about, but that I thought had magically
"gone away". I am back at about 70% amp output and can not figure out why. The diodes
are all fine, and the output voltage is normal (12.5V, rising to 14.3V after < 10
minutes -- depending upon level of battery discharge), but the amperage never goes above
180 amps (250 amps is normal output). The accelerator is fully open (throttle arm at
the end of the wormgear), and the fuel and air intake are clear. The engine sounds fine
-- it is running smoothly (and I believe at the proper RPM) and slows down when load is
removed from the generator. The AC voltage at the posts of each of the 3 diode clusters
is 8.22V AC when the genset is running (if I tested this correctly).
I'm not sure where to look first. Am I looking for an electrical or a mechanical
problem? Does the VCS regulate or possibly limit amp output? Does the fuel solenoid
control ON/OFF fuel flow only? Do I need to test the fuel system flow? Test the
windings and/or winding voltages? Do I need to pull the injector to check/clean it?
What are my processes to troubleshoot this and get the genset back to full output?
I'll appreciate any help you can provide.
Thanks,
Duncan Owen
s/v Whisper
X-Received: from WRD719(Sailmail-3.1.945-B2FHIM$/CM87wj) by wcz99999-1 with Pactor3/FBB-
2/18624.0KHz id wcz99999_83; 06 Aug 2004 01:28:59 -0000
X-From: EMAIL
From: "Sara Jewell"
To: "Whisper"
Cc: <service@fischerpanda.com>
Subject: RE: More help for Whisper's AGT 4000?
X-WL2K-Date: 2004/08/05 19:23
Date: 05 Aug 2004 19:23:00 -0000
X-WL2K-Type: Private
X-AM-RCPT: wcz99999
X-System-Context: SAILMAIL
Message-Id: <27ebb8b13fb7508e.wcz99999_83@airmail2000.com>
X-MID: wcz99999_83
X-AM-UID: c28ee7eff33c65c251f7f2b27279f4de
X-Type: email; inmsg
X-Via: HF.WRD719
X-Date: 2004/08/06 01:29:00
Dear Owen: Mark won't be back until Tuesday, Aug. 10--but I spoke with
one of our engineers and he said that your batteries are full and not
taking anymore amps, because your voltage is right. I hope this helps
until Mark gets back--in the meanwhile, could you supply me with your
generator serial number and contact information such as address and
phone if applicable? We don't have you attached to your serial number in
our data base so I can't record what is going on with your generator.
Thanks, Owen.
Sara Jewell
Director, After Sales Support and Marketing
Fischer Panda Generators
800-508-6494 954-462-2800
***
X-MID: 2480_kg6nnnn
To: "Fischer Panda -- Mark Yerex" <support@fischerpanda.com>
Cc: "Fischer Panda -- Sara Jewell"
Subject: PMA04-012016: More help for Whisper's AGT 4000?
X-Type: Email; Outmail
Date: 12 Aug 2004 02:03:24 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.WHV861
X-Date: 2004/08/12 17:09:38
Mark,
I sent a version of this note last week -- here is a refined one I would like your
feedback on...
After another round of flushing, cleaning, probing, and a raw water-pump rebuild, I have
resolved the overheating issue on our AGT 4000. The originally missing impeller blade
was jammed sideways in the raw water pump output elbow -- enough to restrict the flow,
but not enough to be forced out with pressure water/compressed air. I found and removed
it when I rebuilt the raw water pump.
My new/recurrent problem is one we have already talked about, but that I thought had
magically "gone away". I am back at about 70% of my peak amp output and can not figure
out why. The diodes are all fine, and the output voltage is normal (12.0V, rises to
14.3V over < 30 minutes (depending upon level of battery discharge), but the generator
amperage never goes above 170 peak amps (250 amps is the normal output when my batteries
are very discharged ~11.9V ). The accelerator is fully open (throttle arm at the end of
the wormgear), and the fuel and air intake are clear. The engine sounds fine -- it is
running smoothly (and I believe at the proper RPM) -- and slows down somewhat when load
is removed from the generator. The AC voltage at the posts of each of the 3 diode
clusters is 8.22V AC when the genset is running (if I tested this correctly).
I'm not sure where to look first for this low output problem. Am I looking for an
electrical or a mechanical problem? Does the VCS regulate or possibly limit amp output?
Does the fuel solenoid control ON/OFF fuel flow only? Do I need to test the fuel system
flow? How do I test the windings and/or winding voltages? Do I need to pull the
injector to check/clean it? What are my processes to troubleshoot this and get the
genset back to full output?
Am I hurting anything by running the genset while it produces this low output? The
generator appears to be running in an "overloaded" state while running at full throttle
and trying to drive the voltage up (for the first 15-30 minutes).
Also, in a previous note, I'd asked why it now takes 10-12 starting attempts after an
oil change before the oil pressure climbs sufficiently to allow the generator to start.
It used to only take 2-3 times. What is the solution? Can I override this oil pressure
sensor temporarily to get the generator to start on the first try? Do I have a
restriction somewhere in the oil flow system? What pumps the oil around? It it
possible this pump is failing?
Again, I'll appreciate any help you can provide.
Thanks,
Duncan Owen
s/v Whisper
X-MID: 2481_kg6nnnn
To: "Fischer Panda -- Sara Jewell"
Subject: AGT-4000 recommendations
X-Type: Email; Outmail
Date: 12 Aug 2004 02:03:25 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.WHV861
X-Date: 2004/08/12 17:09:38
Sara,
Over the last three years and 700+ hours of operation, I have encountered numerous
problems with my Fischer-Panda AGT 4000 DC genset. I have worked with my original
installer (Todd Rickard -- Sound Rigging, Seattle), and subsequent support folks -- Shea
Weston (Offshore Outfitters, San Diego), Dave Thompson (Fischer Panda, Los Angeles), Bob
Gruebert (Fischer Panda, Ft. Lauderdale), a reputable diesel mechanic (Puerto Vallarta,
Mexico), and more recently, with you and Mark via email. I appreciate the time you have
spent working with me, but I must admit that I am less than satisfied with the product I
purchased and I would be hesitant to recommend a Fischer Panda AGT-4000 genset to anyone
that asks about my specific experiences.
Some of my frustration and dissatisfaction with my genset resulted from simple stuff --
not related to a specific failure or operational issue. If you were aware of these
frustrations, you might be able to pass it on to Fischer Panda Corporate, and maybe they
could drive some improvements into the product engineering, the sales dealers, and the
installer network. This might improve the experience of future customers?
Here are my specific suggestions for improvement on the AGT-4000:
1.) Much better manuals. A set for each language (no dual/multiple language manuals).
One manual for each: installation, operation and periodic maintenance, and a shop
manual. For English speaking countries, all manuals would be in clear, concise, proof-
read (accurate and consistent), and spell-checked English. The shop manual should
include both the Kubota engine and the Fischer Panda added generator components. The
shop manual should include all normal/extreme operation specs, detail troubleshooting
and diagnostic procedures, tolerances, torques, PSI's, assembly/parts explosion
diagrams, part #'s, etc. A dated (with disclaimer on current price), spare parts price
guide in US$ would be very nice too -- both for determining what spares I'd want and
eliminating some back and forth when I need to order parts and get them shipped
offshore. You can charge $ for the shop manuals.
NOTE -- 08 APR 2005: it look like FP now offers this manual and it is available for
download online!!!
2.) Gauges vs. idiot lights. I have never been a fan of idiot lights, and now I
remember why. Every individual sensor on the engine should have an option to be
connected to its own analog or digital gauge that displays the specific reading of the
sensor (and whether it is within normal operational range). Please add a tachometer to
the genset as well. Something that measures the temperature and (correct) output of the
windings would be useful too. I'd pay extra for these features -- it would save me
hours of troubleshooting time, head-scratching, and headaches.
3.) Simple improvements in the mechanical engineering of the genset: The throttle
sticking on the end of the wormgear (a simple split plastic washer solved this). The
air intake manifold off balance and shaking loose (lock-washers too small?). Nearly
impossible access to the screws on the air intake manifold (fuel system/injector pump in
the way); the nuts on the exhaust manifold; and the wing-nuts on the raw water pump. An
exhaust elbow that corrodes and fails at the welded seams. In the interest of making
the unit "compact", access to frequently accessed areas of the genset is very difficult.
Offering special (would pay extra $), custom-designed, stainless steel tools in a field
service kit would be very helpful. Or, access to the various components could be
improved by modifying the design of the components. Of course, if the exhaust elbow
wasn't failing with corrosion (re-engineer this to be more corrosion resistant), and the
air cleaner intake wasn't shaking loose (add a simple upper bracket to stabilize and add
larger bolts/lock-washers), then frequent access to these two areas might not be
necessary!
4.) VCS troubleshooting. There is a serial port on the VCS that looks like it might be
possible to connect up diagnostic computer software to this port? If VCS diagnostics
were possible, this would have been very helpful. Our early "VCS problem" turned out to
be a sticking throttle, and our rush replacement of the VCS made no difference. An in-
the-field test of the VCS would have told us that the VCS was fine -- look somewhere
else.
5.) A better interface for the battery monitor and automatic genset operation. This
should be an option you pay extra for (we never use it). It should be clear/simple to
turn the feature on and off. We never did figure out why it suddenly came on and stayed
on. All attempts to get us back to "manual" mode by default failed. We ended up
unplugging the battery monitor from the control panel. If the battery monitor were
friendlier design, it might be useful. It should have a human vs. engineer's interface
-- a built-in analog on/off switch, digital voltage displays with analog settings
(knobs, dials, or up/down scroll buttons), and timer setting (same). Anything is better
than twisting screw-pots with one hand and holding two voltage meter probes with the
other!
6.) Provide customers with recommended spares needed offshore (i.e. away from N.
America). Include spare relays, fuses, water-pump(s), water pump rebuild kit(s),
impellers & gaskets. Maybe a spare coolant circulation pump? Maybe a spare heat
exchanger (for a quick swap while the other is off for cleaning/boil-out)? Maybe a
spare injector? I'd recommend a spare exhaust elbow (or two). What about a fuel
solenoid? Diodes? Other items that have failed on the AGT-4000? Of course, an
improved, more reliable, easier-to-diagnose/troubleshoot, and trouble-free genset might
not require me to carry as many spares?
7.) Manage customer expectations better around the "clean burning" engine and the
"super-silent" exhaust... These are parts of the sales pitch I remember -- and that
have been a problem for 3 years. Our exhaust has never been super silent -- it gurgles,
coughs and occasionally spits sooty water -- and it has never burned clean. The engine
burns dirty (even with a tightened air cleaner manifold) and fills our exhaust hose and
water separator with sooty air and water -- which, once discharged from the boat,
accumulates down the hull. Three people have checked the installation and declared it
"according to the installation specification". As we turn our hull topsides black and
the anchorage water gray, I think a wet exhaust would have been much simpler!
Okay. Enough for today. I hope some of these suggestions will come around to benefit
future customers.
Thanks,
Duncan Owen
s/v Whisper
AGT 4000 owner
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X-From: EMAIL
From: "Sara Jewell"
To: "Whisper"
Subject: RE: AGT-4000 recommendations
X-WL2K-Date: 2004/08/12 17:51
Date: 12 Aug 2004 17:51:00 -0000
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Dear Duncan: Thank you for your input; it is most appreciated. I have
sent along your comments to not only Mark, our service manager but also
to our COO and president. I'll let you know the feedback. Thanks again
for your time and interest.
Sara Jewell
Director, After Sales Support and Marketing
Fischer Panda Generators
800-508-6494 954-462-2800
***
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From: <service@fischerpanda.com>
To: "wcz99999@sailmail. com" "Whisper"
Cc: "Paulo Oliveria" <tech@fischerpanda.com>, "Ashley Rushton"
<arushton@fischerpanda.com>, "Sara Jewell"
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016: More help for Whisper's AGT 4000?
X-WL2K-Date: 2004/08/23 12:26
Date: 23 Aug 2004 12:26:00 -0000
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Duncan,
A late reply to your questions for which I apologize. I will also try to get
some feedback from Paulo Olivera ( our engineer ) and also from Germany. If
they have any additional thoughts I will send them along also.
I think that your lower output problem could certainly be a fuel related
issue. If there is any restriction in your fuel filters you would not be
able to achieve full RPM and output. The generator would still run and sound
normal. At 700+ hours you could also have an injector that is not popping
off as clean and with the proper spray pattern as it should. If you have an
injector problem usually there will be some evidence in the exhaust ( either
smoke or fuel sheen on the water ) Servicing both areas would be a good
first step. Also inspect your fuel hose run and make sure the hoses are not
kinked or crushed along the runs. If there is fuel sheen on the water I
would look at the injector and would try not to run the generator, otherwise
it should be OK to use normally.
The oil pressure situation is probably due to the oil screen requiring
service. We recommend this service done between 500 and 1000 hrs depending
on usage and maintenance habits. Cleaning the oil screen requires un-bolting
the two internal mount bolts on the service side of the engine and
lifting/rotating the generator over to access the oil screen assembly. The
oil screen is removed, cleaned and re installed. A trick to assist with oil
priming after an oil change is to engage the starter while holding up the
de-compression lever. Be sure the seacock is closed while doing this. If you
remove the starter relay from its socket ( start relay is on the left ) you
can carefully remove the cap from the relay. When the cap is off carefully
replace the relay into its socket then while holding the decompression lever
up you can manually actuate the relay and crank the engine until oil
pressure primes.
I hope this helps and I will get some input from Paulo and Fischer Panda
Germany ( both have been off on summer holiday ) and forward any thoughts
that they have.
Best Regards
Mark Yerex, Service Manager
support@fischerpanda.com
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X-From: EMAIL
From: <parts@fischerpanda.com>
To: "Whisper"
Subject: Price for Hardi pump/ PMA04-012016
X-WL2K-Date: 2004/09/20 17:41
Date: 20 Sep 2004 17:41:00 -0000
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To whom it may concern,
The price for the Hardi pump is $120.00 and DHL is $65.35. If you have an
account with DHL Please E-mail me info. And to get to your location it will
take DHL a week (7 business days).
If I can be of further help please email or call,
parts@fischerpanda.com 1-800-508-6494.
Thank You, Ricardo Colon
***
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From: <service@fischerpanda.com>
To: "Whisper"
Cc: "Sara Jewell", "Paulo Oliveria" <tech@fischerpanda.com>,
"Ashley Rushton" <arushton@fischerpanda.com>
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016: More help for Whisper's AGT 4000?
X-WL2K-Date: 2004/09/23 13:25
Date: 23 Sep 2004 13:25:00 -0000
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X-Date: 2004/09/23 20:23:28
Duncan,
Sorry I was not here to assist with the fuel pump question but it sounds
like your new one should be going out today. We did get a response to some
of your questions that were forwarded on to Germany. Paulo and I will
review the information and forward it to you in the next couple of days.
Best Regards
Mark Yerex, Service Manager
service@fischerpanda.com
***
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X-From: EMAIL
From: <parts@fischerpanda.com>
To: "Whisper"
Subject: RE: DHL Tracking # for Fuel Pump to Tonga? PMA04-012016
X-WL2K-Date: 2004/09/28 12:38
Date: 28 Sep 2004 12:38:00 -0000
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The DHL# is 4020510325 and the package went out on 9/27/2004. It will take 7
to 10 business days to reach that destination.
If I can be of further help please email or call,
parts@fischerpanda.com 1-800-508-6494.
Thank You, Ricardo Colon
-----Original Message-----
From: "Whisper"@sailmail.com [mailto:wcz99999@sailmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 3:07 AM
To: Fischer Panda -- Mark Yerex
Cc: Fischer Panda -- Ricardo Colon
Subject: DHL Tracking # for Fuel Pump to Tonga? PMA04-012016
Ricardo/Mark,
Regarding the Hardi Fuel Pump for our AGT 4000: Please email us with the
DHL tracking number and the date it shipped. This will help us know when to
start looking for the package at DHL, Customs, or Sailing Safaris here in
Tonga.
Thanks so much,
Duncan Owen
s/v Whisper
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X-From: EMAIL
From: <bgrubert@fischerpanda.com>
To: "Whisper"
Cc: <service@fischerpanda.com>, "'Sara Jewell'", "'ASHLEY
RUSHTON'" <arushton@fischerpanda.com>, <parts@fischerpanda.com>
Subject: PMA04-012016 DHL
X-WL2K-Date: 2004/10/18 15:29
Date: 18 Oct 2004 15:29:00 -0000
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Mr. Duncan Owen,
I've been in touch with DHL as of this time they appear to have lost
shipment; I'm working with them to reship replacement I will contact you
with new tracking number then.
If further help needed, feel free to contact us again
Best Wishes, Robert (Bob) Grubert
Bgrubert@fischerpanda.com
***
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X-From: EMAIL
From: <bgrubert@fischerpanda.com>
To: <bgrubert@fischerpanda.com>, "Whisper"
Cc: <service@fischerpanda.com>, "'Sara Jewell'", "'ASHLEY
RUSHTON'" <arushton@fischerpanda.com>, <parts@fischerpanda.com>
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016 DHL
X-WL2K-Date: 2004/10/19 20:12
Date: 19 Oct 2004 20:12:00 -0000
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Mr. Duncan Owen,
We have reshipped your Fuel Pump, DHL Track # 7798916602.
They are unable to locate original shipment, sorry for delay.
If further help needed, feel free to contact us again
Best Wishes, Robert (Bob) Grubert
Bgrubert@fischerpanda.com
_____
From: Robert [mailto:bgrubert@fischerpanda.com]
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 11:29 AM
To: 'wcz99999@sailmail.com'
Cc: 'service@fischerpanda.com'; 'Sara Jewell'; 'ASHLEY RUSHTON';
'parts@fischerpanda.com'
Subject: PMA04-012016 DHL
Mr. Duncan Owen,
I've been in touch with DHL as of this time they appear to have lost
shipment; I'm working with them to reship replacement I will contact you
with new tracking number then.
If further help needed, feel free to contact us again
Best Wishes, Robert (Bob) Grubert
Bgrubert@fischerpanda.com
***
X-In-Reply-To: wcz99999_381
To: bgrubert@fischerpanda.com
Cc: service@fischerpanda.com, "'Sara Jewell'", "'ASHLEY
RUSHTON'" <arushton@fischerpanda.com>, "Fischer Panda -- Ricardo Colon"
<parts@fischerpanda.com>
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016 DHL
X-Type: Email; Outmail
X-MID: 2687_kg6nnnn
Date: 21 Oct 2004 18:33:10 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.KUZ533
X-Date: 2004/10/21 18:33:12
All at F.P.,
Thanks for tracking this down and getting another fuel pump shipped. We will be leaving
Tonga in a week or two and hope to have the new pump installed and working before the
big passage to New Zealand. We will use the tracking number to keep an eye on it. We
should be able to check its location when we are in town and near an internet cafe --
probably early next week, but hopefully, it will be here by then...
Again, thanks.
Duncan Owen
s/v Whisper
Vava'u Group, Kingdom of Tonga
X-In-Reply-To: wcz99999_381
X-MID: 2713_kg6nnnn
To: bgrubert@fischerpanda.com
Cc: service@fischerpanda.com, "'Sara Jewell'", "'ASHLEY
RUSHTON'" <arushton@fischerpanda.com>, "Fischer Panda -- Ricardo Colon"
<parts@fischerpanda.com>
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016 DHL
X-Type: Email; Outmail
Date: 29 Oct 2004 03:06:20 -0000
X-From: "Whisper"
X-Status: Sent
X-Via: HF.KUZ533
X-Date: 2004/10/29 03:06:22
Bob,
Thanks for resending the fuel pump. We received the fuel pump on October 28th (October
27th in the U.S.), in Nieafu, Tonga. It is installed and working, but our max output is
about 180-190 amps on batteries at 11.9V. It used to be about 250 amps, but our 735 Ah
bank of AGM's is nearly shot -- we are only getting 50-100 Ah out of the bank before it
is at 11.8V -- in other words, it may be the fault of our 3 year old battery bank. We
will be fine for the passage to New Zealand, and we'll have the whole system evaluated
when we get to New Zealand. Do you have a qualified Fischer Panda service technician in
Opua, Whangarei, or Auckland, New Zealand? We are heading there in about two days, and
will arrive in Opua, NZ by mid-November.
Thanks,
Duncan Owen
s/v Whisper
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From: <service@fischerpanda.com>
To: <bgrubert@fischerpanda.com>, "Whisper"
Cc: "Ashley Rushton" <arushton@fischerpanda.com>
Subject: RE: PMA04-012016 DHL
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Date: 29 Oct 2004 18:12:00 -0000
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Duncan,
Bob forwarded your E mail and I can give you a contact in New Zealand.
Pacific Power Systems
P.O. Box 303-107, North Harbor
Auckland, New Zealand
phone 64-477-0258
fax 64-9-477-0259
e-mail www.pacificpower.co.nz
I will E-mail them and let them know you will be contacting them in the near
future.
They can direct you to a more convenient dealer if there is one or schedule
you in to assist.
Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.
Best Regards
Mark Yerex, Service Manager
service@fischerpanda.com
***
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From: xxxxxxxx@sailwhisper.com
To: enquiry@pacificpower.co.nz
Cc: wcz99999@sailmail.com, service@fischerpanda.com
Subject: Help with Fischer Panda AGT-4000
X-WL2K-Date: 2004/11/23 00:08
Date: 23 Nov 2004 00:08:00 -0000
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X-Date: 2004/11/26 07:03:26
Hello,
My name is Duncan Owen from the sailing vessel Whisper. We own a Fischer
Panda AGT-4000 that we have had myriad problems with over the last few
years. The genset is an EA300B Kubota engine with 1000 hours on it. The
nice folks in Florida at Fischer Panda Support indicated that you may be
able to help us get our genset behaving again. I think Bob Grubert may
have mentioned us and warned you that we were coming!
We are in Opua Marina now and are anxious to get our generator working
correctly again. I have a long list of more than a dozen items/areas of
attention that I'll quickly summarize at the end of this note. I'm hoping
that most of these will be covered under some Fischer Panda warranty, but
I am prepared to expect the worst (we pay for all of it). If we are going
to cover all of the cost, it will limit what we have fixed, but we'll wait
until we get a complete diagnosis and detailed quote before we worry about
that. Several of the items would probably be easier to accomplish if the
generator were removed from the boat, so the cost of removal might also
need to be included.
Do you have someone in Opua or Whangarei that can come to the boat in Opua
and give us this initial assessment? Please let us know as soon as
possible if someone can help us here while in Opua. We will be here for
another few weeks, then plan to arrive in Auckland in early January. We
could do some of the essential preliminary/diagnostic work here, then
finish the non-essential (and within-budget) work when we arrive in
Bayswater in January. It will be nice to have a behaving genset while
enjoying the Bay of Islands anchorages.
Thanks and we look forward to hearing from you soon.
Summary of work:
1.) Intake manifold: manifold fixed & cleaned or completely replaced,
support bracket built & installed, gasket, bolts & washers replaced. 2.)
Exhaust manifold: replaced temporary solution with factory solution
(ideally re-engineered from first failed version)
3.) Internal engine mount replacement and sound shield
cleaning/foam/gasket replacement: A earlier severe oil leak specifies the
replacement of the internal mounts.
4.) Replace temporary crankcase faceplate with new factory faceplate
(source of previously mentioned oil leak)
5.) Oil screen replacement/cleaning
6.) Injector service, injection pump check/test
7.) Valve service, compression/blow-by test, rings OK? See next issue.
8.) Dirty burning engine: some of the other work may fix this, but even
when everything is working 100% it still burns very dirty.
9.) Replace wiring harness on inside of genset. Several burned and melted
wires need replacement (even though Fischer Panda says they're OK).
10.) Troubleshoot intermittent "low output" (160-180 Amp output) problem.
Optional/desired improvement Work:
1.) Exhaust system drain pump & switch/relay/timer installed
2.) Fuel deliver system re-engineering (pick-up, pump, filtration
checked and optionally improved with dual filters).
3.) Engine oil system re-engineering: external filters/pump, plumb into
existing oil changing solution on main engine (a Reverso pump). We never
want to worry about the oil "screen" cleaning again.
4.) Plumb genset cooling (coolant circulation) into hot water heater (< 1
meter hose run, 1/2 meter rise).
5.) Engine sensor improvements: wire in independent digital gauges for
temp (exhaust, engine, windings) and pressure (oil, fuel).
Thanks again,
Duncan Owen
s/v Whisper
Opua, Bay of Islands, New Zealand
***
From: ASHLEY RUSHTON [arushton@fischerpanda.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:09 AM
To: xxxxxxxx@sailwhisper.com
Cc: service@fischerpanda.com; 'Colin pawson'
Subject: RE: Whisper's AGT-4000 12V
Dear Mr. Duncan Owen,
It is not totally clear from your e-mail as to what is
currently wrong with your generator. I have reviewed the history of your
generator with Mark Yerek and have also asked Colin Pawson the advise us as
to what is required to restore your generator to full operational status.
Colin has advised that he anticipates having access to your generator later
this month.
Once we have received an assessment of your generator from Colin Pawson
we will be able to respond to the contents of your e-mail.
Best regards,
J. Ashley Rushton
-----Original Message-----
From: Duncan Owen [mailto:xxxxxxxx@sailwhisper.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 6:43 PM
To: arushton@fischerpanda.com
Cc: cpawson@enertecservices.co.nz
Subject: Whisper's AGT-4000 12V
Ashley,
My name is Duncan Owen. Since early 2002, I have been in frequent contact
with Fischer Panda regarding problems on our AGT 4000. You should have a
history of all my contacts and problems, so I won't overwhelm you with those
details, but here is a summary:
o Dirty burning engine, extremely sooty exhaust water
o Exhaust elbow corrosion and failure
o Intake manifold/air cleaner shaking loose (after just a few hours after
tightening all three bolts)
o Variable (mostly low) output (160A-180A 12V instead of 240-260A normal)
Problems we resolved in the field with quick/dirty repairs:
o Melted wire covers, blown 400A fuses at diodes -- replaced with metal
bar.
o Stuck "wide-open" throttle -- fixed by inserting plastic washer on worm
gear.
o Failed exhaust elbow fixed once, replaced once, and replaced again with
stainless in-field fabricated elbow (which has recently corroded and failed
again).
o Crankcase end-plate cracked, replaced with in-field aluminium fabricated
plate (FP sent me a used replacement plate of the old design that I still
have, but it is not installed).
Most of the problems we are having are the same one we have been having
since the original installation in the summer of 2001.
Over the years we have worked with Todd Rickard -- original installer (Sound
Rigging, Seattle), Shea Weston (Offshore Outfitters, San Diego), Dave
Thompson (Fischer Panda, Long Beach), Bob Gruebert (FP, FL), Sara Jewell
(FP, FL), and Mark Yerex (FP, FL) to get resolutions, spare parts, or field
work-arounds for these issues.
While in Mexico and the South Pacific, we did not have access to Fischer
Panda technicians, but now that we have arrived in New Zealand, we would
like to get the problems with our generator fixed by professionals before we
head out to anchor again. Colin Pawson (Pacific Power/Enertec, Auckland New
Zealand) gave me your email so we could have an email dialogue/exchange
regarding what might still be covered under warranty -- before he starts any
work on the genset.
Although the generator may now be out of warranty, we are asking you to make
an exception and include these repairs under warranty. We have been having
these problems consistently since we first started using the generator in
early 2002 (with less than 35 hours on it). We now have three years of
cruising and 1130 hours on the unit. There has also been some discussion
about pulling the generator out of the boat to work on it -- something we
don't want to do, but might have to consider if the problems can't be fixed
at the dock.
Please look at the records of my past correspondence and let me know what
you decide regarding warranty coverage. I have the past email threads back
to 2002 that I can send you if there is any issue with finding my account
history.
Thanks very much, and I hope to hear from you soon,
Duncan Owen
s/v Whisper
xxxxxxxx@sailwhisper.com
Mobile: +64 21 999 999